Topic: which Gospel? (Read 14123 times)

Joel · « **Reply #20 on:** December 11, 2005, 04:35:18 PM »

"If Paul preached some "new secret gospel" not previously revealed to the prophets, or by Jesus to the disciples, then we are obligated to reject it!"

IF???

He did.

So, you are saying that the risen Lord of Glory and His calling of the chief of sinners for a purpose should be ignored?

Joel · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2005, 04:55:06 PM »

"This is some wild stuff."

Wild to you maybe. Truth to many.

"I'm not even sure what you hope to possibly gain by such a doctrine."

Well I can tell you what I have gained. Eternal Life!

"Jesus said the "kingdom of heaven" is in our mists."

He says that to us? I think He told that to the people whom the kingdom was promised too. His people, Israel.

" He is the Kingdom and all believers are equal."

Is there some scriptures you could point me to that will tell me He IS the kingdom? I believe He is to rule over this kingdom when it is again in their midst.

"He revealed that secret to many people himself."

Which secret are you talking about? gentiles being ok with God?

"Peter was a bit stubborn but he finally got it."

Why hadn't any of the Jews or apostles or other heads of Peters church got it?

"Why focus on Paul alone? He happens to be my least favored."

I wouldn't say focus on Paul alone. But Pauls writings is where we find the gospel of the grace of God, the good news we must believe for salvation today. That God was In Christ reconciling the world unto Himself by the cross. That through Christs faithfulness in this way God provided, men are saved.

How do you rate apostles from favorite to least favorite?

His by grace.........Joel

Cook · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:04:36 PM »

Joel,
I'll get to all your questions - with scripture.

What scripture exactly are quoting that shows Paul had some secret that the others did not have or that Jesus did not reveal?

cook

Joel · « **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:07:06 PM »

Raed ephesian 3 for starters cook.

1cor. 2:1-10

collosians 1:24- Romans 16:25-26

Don't overlook the "but nows".

Cook · « **Reply #24 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:17:01 PM »

Joel,

Slow down a bit for others that are reading too - okay.

Ephesians 3:1-6 I don't feel like typing the whole thing so I'll get to the point.

Paul's mission was to gentiles - yes.
Was he the only one the "mystery" was revealed to? NO.

Look at verse 5-6 He says plainly that it was not made known to past generations but was revealed by the Spirit to God's Holy apostles AND prophets.

The prophets did know - maybe they did not fully understand. But the above text says it was made known to them as well as the apostles.

Ephesians does not say or support that Paul alone was privileged to this information.

cook

Joel · « **Reply #25 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:23:22 PM »

Look at verse 5-6 He says plainly that it was not made known to past generations but was revealed by the Spirit to God's Holy apostles AND prophets.

I know cook. But it also says as it "has NOW been revealed." This was obviously not know by Peter and the 11 while Christ walked the earth, but was revealed to the apostle to the gentiles by the risen Lord. Its new news so to speak.

Cook · « **Reply #26 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:28:28 PM »

Quote

So, you are saying that the risen Lord of Glory and His calling of the chief of sinners for a purpose should be ignored?

No. What I am saying is that if Paul claims that he alone received this understanding. And if it can be proven that his version of the gospel was not taught by Jesus, and was not known to the apostles, then I have nothing to fear in rejecting him.

In fact I am obligated.

Any joker can claim to have revelation from the Holy Spirit - the revelation MUST however line up with the rest of God's word - or it must be rejected!!

All I need for salvation is contained in the recorded words of Jesus in the four Gospels. I challange you to prove otherwise.

The gentile woman at the well is one of the most beautiful examples in the bible.

Jesus told her if she knew the gift of God and who it was that asked her for a drink - she would have asked living water of him and HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO HER!

cook

Joel · « **Reply #27 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:43:10 PM »

"All I need for salvation is contained in the recorded words of Jesus in the four Gospels. I challange you to prove otherwise."

I can't even attempt this until I know what this message of salvation you believe is.

Cook · « **Reply #28 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:55:49 PM »

Quote

I know cook. But it also says as it "has NOW been revealed." This was obviously not know by Peter and the 11 while Christ walked the earth, but was revealed to the apostle to the gentiles by the risen Lord. Its new news so to speak

Here I absolutely agree with you. Except the part about "the" apostle.

I talk about this all the time. My friend and I lead a bible study. We are currently watching the Passion.
Knowing that the disciples did not know the mystery before the resurrection is key to understanding the gospels.

So on this account we are on the same page!!

But the Gospels were written after they knew. This is why we have Thomas declaring for the first time "My master and my GOD". This is why the Gospel of John says Jesus was God come in the flesh. That was indeed part of the mystery - but it was made known to all the apostles.

Why do I pick certain disciples I like best? Well just like we all have our own personalities - so do they. I happen to love Peter and John's personalities best.

cook

valerie · « **Reply #29 on:** December 11, 2005, 05:58:14 PM »

Cook · « **Reply #30 on:** December 11, 2005, 06:06:10 PM »

Cook · « **Reply #31 on:** December 11, 2005, 06:12:00 PM »

Val, that was VERY VERY CUTE !!!!

cook

Joel · « **Reply #32 on:** December 11, 2005, 06:29:01 PM »

I can't even attempt this until I know what this message of salvation you believe is.

I believe that Jesus is God.
That he was born in the flesh to a virgin.
He died on the cross and rose again on the third day.
I believe that he died for the sins of all mankind.
I believe that to be saved one must trust that he did die for us and resurrect and is able to save us.
I believe in eternal security for the believer.
I believe that his only command to believers is to love him above all others and love one another like he loves us.
I believe that all believers have the Holy Spirit to guide them.

I have to pretty much agree with all of that cook.

However, there is a particular good message/news (gospel) one must hear today in order to believe, and put their trust in for salvation. One Lord, One faith, One baptism you know.

If you had 30 seconds to tell an unsaved dying person how to have eternal life, surely you wouldn't try to get them to believe the list of things you just wrote to me. What one line of your post would be the most pertinent thing to convey to them?

The good message of salvation, the gospel for today, is only contained in one of your beliefs, even though they are all scriptural.

You do know that gospel means good news, or good message don't you?

Cook · « **Reply #33 on:** December 11, 2005, 07:35:39 PM »

Quote

The good message of salvation, the gospel for today, is only contained in one of your beliefs, even though they are all scriptural.

No- it can be sumed up three. But not one of those alone is enough.

Which three do I say?

That he is God - no man can die for the sins of another.
That he died for ALL mankind
That he rose on the third day - This is the sign he gave to those he spoke with.

So yes those 3 sum it up perfectly!!

How do you say one?

cook

Cook · « **Reply #34 on:** December 11, 2005, 07:39:27 PM »

oh I got you. I wrote too soon.

This one would be almost perfect:
I believe that to be saved one must trust that he did die for us and resurrect and is able to save us.

But to believe that you must accept that he is God.

Joel · « **Reply #35 on:** December 11, 2005, 07:45:25 PM »

"How do you say one? '

1 Cor 15:1-4

Cook · « **Reply #36 on:** December 11, 2005, 10:34:27 PM »

Joel,

Quote

"How do you say one? '

1 Cor 15:1-4

You said one that I listed.
But anyway - I could prove the info contained in I Cor 15:1-4 without quoting Paul.

And, yes of course I knew that Gospel meant "good news". Please give me SOME credit.

But back to your point. The good news for gentiles did come out of Jesus' mouth long before Paul even dreamed of being a Christian. Need scripture?

cook

Joel · « **Reply #37 on:** December 12, 2005, 06:06:48 AM »

"But back to your point. The good news for gentiles did come out of Jesus' mouth long before Paul even dreamed of being a Christian. Need scripture?"

Yes, I do. Lets see Jesus teaching salvation for Jew and gentile by the cross, anytime before Paul is called.

Tony N · « **Reply #38 on:** December 12, 2005, 10:10:34 AM »

Quote from: Joel

"But back to your point. The good news for gentiles did come out of Jesus' mouth long before Paul even dreamed of being a Christian. Need scripture?"

Yes, I do. Lets see Jesus teaching salvation for Jew and gentile by the cross, anytime before Paul is called.

Tony's reply:

Don't meant to butt in here but Jesus did say that all would be drawn to him if He was exalted out of the earth:

Joh 12:32 And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself."

Joel, I think that it would be helpful for you to show that Paul did not teach a secret gospel but secrets unknown prior to him receiving them.

There were several secrets only Paul had to give only to the believers of the nations and they pertain only to them. Of course these secrets are good news for us.

I think Cook and you are real close. God has blessed Cook with understanding in many things.

I think you lost Cook (excuse me if I'm wrong) when you started saying Paul had a secret gospel. Then Cook wrote about the proto-evangel beginning in Genesis thus showing you lost him at that point. It might be better, as I stated before, to show Paul having secrets never known before to Peter or the eleven or prior to them even in all the OT.

But I seem to get people mad at me here more than being helpful so I'll butt out if this is not helpful.

Tony

Cook · « **Reply #39 on:** December 12, 2005, 10:54:15 AM »

John 10:7-18 (King James Version)

Israel is the fold he is sent to - but here he tells he has other sheep not of that fold. The other sheep are Gentiles. He says he gives his life for his sheep and takes his life back up again. All who come through him (the door) are saved.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Matthew 16:21 (King James Version)

Secret revealed before Paul.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Luke 24:7 (King James Version)

Disciples remember Jesus' words:

7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

Luke 24:44-48 (King James Version)

Secret revealed by Jesus to disciples before Paul.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Matthew 8:10-12 (King James Version)

Jesus reveals gentiles will be in the kingdom because of faith while children of the kingdom (Israel) will be excluded due to lack of faith.

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

lets start here.

cook

Author Topic: which Gospel? (Read 14123 times)