Topic: which Gospel? (Read 14122 times)

Joel · « **on:** December 11, 2005, 05:59:15 AM »

Here's a good easy read.

In Paul's letter to the Galatians we read of a problem that had developed in the Galatian churches. Some had come into these assemblies preaching another gospel and the Galatians were being led astray by their teaching.

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

Notice that Paul makes clear that the other gospel being preached was not completely without basis. That is, it was not unscriptural. It was however, undispensational. The Jews who were coming from Jerusalem to trouble the saints in Galatia were adding elements from the Gospel of the Circumcision, to Paul's Gospel of the Uncircumcision.

And certain men which came down [to Galatia] from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. Acts 15:1

In order to avoid the problem faced by the churches of Galatia, we must understand the content of the various gospel messages of Scripture.

The Gospel of the Circumcision

In Galatians 2, Paul refers to two different gospel messages, the gospel of the circumcision, and the gospel of the uncircumcision.

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Galatians 2:7

We shall first consider the content of the gospel of the circumcision.

In order to understand the gospel of the circumcision we must go back to the place where God instituted circumcision, the book of Genesis.

And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. Genesis 17:9-11

God instituted circumcision as a sign of the covenant that He made with Abraham. The "Gospel of the Circumcision" is the good news that that covenant contained. God initially revealed this good news to Abraham in Genesis 12.

Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:1-3

The good news is repeated again in Genesis 15.

And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. Genesis 15:5-7

The two main elements of the Gospel of the Circumcision are a people and a land. Notice that in both passages above Abraham is promised a vast multiplied seed. Abraham was to be the father of millions of descendents. Obviously, if Abraham was to have millions of descendents, those descendents would need a place to live. This need is filled in the granting of a land to Abraham. The dimensions of this land are spelled out in scripture. (See Genesis 15:18-21) There is also a third bit of good news implied in the promise of Genesis 12. Abraham's descendents were to become a "nation". This indicates a governmental structure to rule over the promised people in the promised land. We will deal with this promise more fully later when we discuss the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Once we understand the content of the Gospel of the Circumcision, it is clear that it cannot apply to us. As Gentiles (those who are not physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), we are not a part of the people and land promised to Abraham. We are specifically excluded from the Gospel of the Circumcision.

The Gospel of the Uncircumcision

In the Galatians passage quoted above Paul mentioned another gospel message, the Gospel of the Uncircumcision. Even the name would indicate to us that this gospel is very different than the Gospel of the Circumcision. Paul defined the content of this gospel later in the book of Galatians.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. Galatians 6:14,15

The heart of the gospel message that Paul preached is that circumcision profits nothing. (See also Galatians 5:2.) This is a marked contrast to the message of the Gospel of the Circumcision. Paul expanded upon the truth of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision in his letter to the Ephesians.

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesians 2:11-16

Today access to God is not through a nation of circumcised Jews but through "one new man", the Church, the Body of Christ. In the Body of Christ circumcision and uncircumcision are not an issue. Jews and Gentiles are reconciled together in Christ, and in Him, reconciled to God.

As uncircumcised Gentiles, we can rejoice in the fact that today God is offering a gospel that includes us. No longer are we on the wrong side of the "middle wall of partition". We can now take our place, in Christ, as a part of the "household of God" (See Ephesians 2:19). This is the message of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision.

The Gospel of the Kingdom

The next gospel message that we will consider, the Gospel of the Kingdom, is closely related to the Gospel of the Circumcision that we discussed above. It is the gospel message that Christ proclaimed during His earthly ministry.

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. Matthew 4:23

The most evident content of the Gospel of the Kingdom was that the Kingdom of Heaven was as hand. This is the message proclaimed by both Christ and His twelve apostles.

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matthew 4:17

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matthew 10:5-7

The Gospel of the Kingdom brings clearly into focus the third element of the Gospel of the Circumcision that God revealed to Abraham. The Gospel of the Kingdom explains in detail the governmental structure that will be put in place to make the people and land promised to Abraham a nation. Obviously, the roots of the Gospel of the Kingdom can be traced back to God's promise to Abraham, but it is in a promise to another Old Testament saint that we see it more fully expanded and explained. This explanation comes in the promise of Nathan, the prophet, to David.

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever. I Samuel 7:12-16

David is promised that it will be his lineage that will rule over the people of Israel in the promised land forever. This promise is to be fulfilled not only in David's son Solomon, but ultimately in his son, Jesus Christ.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

During His earthly ministry, Christ made clear that he would not bring in the kingdom at that time, but would return a second time to establish the kingdom.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:11,12

This parable is a beautiful description of Daniel's prophecy concerning Christ's receiving of kingdom authority.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13,14

It must be noted that while the Gospel of the Kingdom was certainly very good news for the recipients of that kingdom, it was very bad news for those that would oppose the establishment of God's kingdom on the earth. In order for the kingdom to be established, the opponents of that kingdom must be destroyed. This is exactly what happens at the return of Christ.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:19-21

It is only after Christ has destroyed the opponents of the kingdom that His reign of peace can begin.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is good news about the coming of Christ to establish a literal, visible, physical, earthly, kingdom, sitting on the throne of His father, David.

The Gospel of the Grace of God

The Gospel of the Grace of God is a gospel message that is closely related to the Gospel of the Uncircumcision that we discussed above. The Gospel of the Grace of God is the message of salvation that is proclaimed to and by the Church, the Body of Christ, the topic of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision.

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24

It should not be surprising to find that the time in which the Gospel of the Grace of God is preached, is called the Dispensation of the Grace of God.

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: Ephesians 3:1,2

While it is true that God has, throughout history, offered grace to various individuals and groups. (See Genesis 6:8), the thing that is unique about the Dispensation of Grace is that God is offering grace to ALL men. That is why the Gospel of the Grace of God is so closely related to the Gospel of the Uncircumcision. Today grace is not being offered only to the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All men, without distinction, have been given the opportunity to be reconciled to God through the Body of Christ.

But now in Christ Jesus ye [Gentiles] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both [Jew and Gentile] one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Ephesians 2:13-18

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:26-28

The wrath of God that was to come to prepare for the establishment of the earthly kingdom has been withheld. Today God is not punishing the inhabitants of the earth for their sin and rebellion against Him. We can see a beautiful type of this offer of grace and mercy in the salvation and ministry of Paul.

And I [Paul] thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. I Timothy 1:12-16

Paul was the chief of sinners. He was leading the persecution of the kingdom church in early Acts. So intense as his hatred for God's people that the Scripture tells us that he was "breathing out threatenings and slaughter" against them. Certainly if there ever was a man that deserved the wrath of God, it was Saul. But instead of pouring out judgement and wrath, God reached down in mercy and grace and saved Saul. He then sent him to the world with the Gospel of the Grace of God, a gospel of which Paul was a pattern.

The Gospel of the Grace of God tells the good news of God's wrath withheld. It offers grace, mercy, and peace to all men. It is the message of the Church, the Body of Christ in the Dispensation of the Grace of God.

Who's Got Your Gospel?

The gospel messages for today are the gospels proclaimed by Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles in the Age of Grace; the Gospel of the Circumcision and the Gospel of the Grace of God. It is the message proclaimed by these gospels that he refers to as "my gospel" and that plays a key role in our establishment in the faith.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, Romans 16:25

We cannot be established in the faith and lead a life pleasing to the Lord if we are following another gospel. Our gospel message is found in the epistles of Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles.

Hope this helps someone.

Cook · « **Reply #1 on:** December 11, 2005, 10:23:22 AM »

Joel · « **Reply #2 on:** December 11, 2005, 10:31:50 AM »

Thanks for taking the time to read that cook.

"Are you saying that only Paul's message pertains to us?"

Pauls writings contain our (the body of Christs) doctrine.
Mush confusion is the result of mixing Paul, the apostle to the gentiles writings with the rest of the scriptures that pertain to Gods dealings with His chosen people, Israel.

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting". I Timothy 1:12-16

Did you notice that "IN ME FIRST" in there cook? This is a whole new deal.

The good news of the circumcision is most definatly not OUR good message now is it?

His by Grace................Joel

Cook · « **Reply #3 on:** December 11, 2005, 10:48:00 AM »

Joel,

Quote

Did you notice that "IN ME FIRST" in there cook? This is a whole new deal.

I read it , but I think your wanting me to "catch" something I might have missed. So if so, I'm listening.

Quote

The good news of the circumcision is most definatly not OUR good message now is it?

Absolutly not!!

I think we are on the same page. I agree that we cause much confusion by mixing.
I think also it is do to the fact that we do not fully understand enough about the OT to be able to separate. For this reason Paul is a big helper. I am very familiar with the OT and the Jewish side of things - so for me separation is not a hard issue. I think when I didn't have a clear understanding of the OT and Jewish thought, I did have a hard time understanding. In that time I depended on Paul's letters more than I do now. I still love Paul's stuff - don't get me wrong. But I am now able to see such beauty in the conversations between Jesus and his disciples, when before I didn't quite understand all that was going on.

Anyway - your post is great!

cook

Joel · « **Reply #4 on:** December 11, 2005, 01:27:15 PM »

Didn't mean to mislead you or anyone cook. That post of mine was copied from grace alive.us. A site that has much of what I believe written easy to understand.

I guess what I wanted you and others to "catch" was that this account from Paul helps prove that God began dealing with mankind differently.

His..............Joel

valerie · « **Reply #5 on:** December 11, 2005, 01:37:08 PM »

This fixation with Paul is coming up again!

I read your post Joel and it was very well thought out and referenced. I disagree with some very basic concepts, however.

The first problem is this belief that Paul was suggesting that people would not be punished for wrong deeds or that works were not tied to salvation. As you stated...

Quote

Today God is not punishing the inhabitants of the earth for their sin and rebellion against Him.

Let me quote Paul since you all are so keen on perverting his message...
Rom 2:
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Second problem is your exclusion of Gentiles from the circumcision. Again, allow me to quote Paul, from the same book and chapter no less...
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul taught the same gospel as the other apostles. The only difference between the OT and NT gospels is the covenant acts or signs of the covenant's that the people were to make. For example sacrifice was no longer necessary because Jesus came and died, fulfilling the law. Circumcision is the same deal, it reflected as you noted a covenant act which as Paul states, the physical covenant act does not make a person more receptive to the gospel. It is the circumcision of the heart, a spiritual reflection of a covenant that is evidence by peoples works. Paul was teaching that your works will show your devotion to Jesus.

Joel · « **Reply #6 on:** December 11, 2005, 01:53:44 PM »

"This fixation with Paul is coming up again!"

Well after all, the scriptures do declare he IS the apostles to the gentiles.

Where and from whom do you get your doctrine valerie?

Nice to meet you!

His by Grace alone.............Joel

valerie · « **Reply #7 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:00:48 PM »

Quote

Where and from whom do you get your doctrine valerie?

Funny, I didn't think that Paul's letter to the Romans required much by way of intelligence to understand. I just read it and it said what it said.

Nice to meet you too Joel!

Joel · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:07:10 PM »

"The first problem is this belief that Paul was suggesting that people would not be punished for wrong deeds or that works were not tied to salvation."

As you stated... "
Quote:
Today God is not punishing the inhabitants of the earth for their sin and rebellion against Him."

First off, you misunderstood. What I quoted didn't say people wouldn't be punished. It says, what it says........Today God is not punishing the inhabitants of the earth for their sin and rebellion against Him.

He's not either. In the past in His dealings with His chosen people Israel though, He did. When they rebelled He punished them. Remember how tought they had it? They were blessed for walking in His ways and cursed for straying.

The article is saying God isn't activley punishing sin and rebellion as He had done in times past.

Agree?

How do you figure works are tied to salvation? Must we add something to Christs finished work?

His......Joel

Joel · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:11:54 PM »

"Funny, I didn't think that Paul's letter to the Romans required much by way of intelligence to understand. I just read it and it said what it said."

I guess your point went right over my head.

Sic Semper Tyranis · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:12:22 PM »

Quote from: valerie

Paul taught the same gospel as the other apostles. The only difference between the OT and NT gospels
Quote

I'll go further and say that their is no seperation of gospels. The gospel that we have now was/is always the gospel all the way from the saying of the proto-evangelion of Gen 3:15 until now.

Joel · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:27:21 PM »

"I'll go further and say that their is no seperation of gospels. The gospel that we have now was/is always the gospel all the way from the saying of the proto-evangelion of Gen 3:15 until now."

I sure would like to hear this gospel you speak of.

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began"

I will follow this gospel Paul speaks of. Nobody knew about it before the risen Lord gave it to Paul. You think its everywhere. The scriptures say it was kept secret.

Sic Semper Tyranis · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2005, 02:56:00 PM »

The gospel I speak of is this: First of all it is faith that is worked by the Holy Spirit. the faith is this: that Jesus, Iesous, Yeshua or whatever name you wish to give Him is the biblically prophesied Messiah and was resurected from death. When the HS works this faith the HS also works a genuine repentance of sins which are forgiven by the resurection. That is the gospel that I speak of.

Sure the gospel may have been kept a secret until Paul's time, but that doesn't mean it did not exsist before Paul.

Cook · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2005, 03:22:23 PM »

Joel · « **Reply #14 on:** December 11, 2005, 03:22:35 PM »

"Sure the gospel may have been kept a secret until Paul's time, but that doesn't mean it did not exsist before Paul."

May have been? The scriptures are very clear, this was kept secret. Hid in God even.

Now that we have that settled, what was the gospel Jesus went about preaching before Paul? What was the good news Jesus's hand picked 12 went around preaching ignorant that Christ was going to die, let alone be resurrected?

We sure have a gospel being preached before we have the gospel revealed don't we? So how can a gospel thats been revealed be the same gospel that was kept secret sic semper?

Cook · « **Reply #15 on:** December 11, 2005, 03:36:53 PM »

Quote

I will follow this gospel Paul speaks of. Nobody knew about it before the risen Lord gave it to Paul. You think its everywhere. The scriptures say it was kept secret.

No it was not kept secret until Paul. If Paul appears to say so - then you need to take a closer look at the original language. Paul could not have said such a thing and meant what you are interpreting it to mean.

The secret was that the Messiah was the creator/God. And the secret was that Jews and Gentiles were equal in his sight through grace. Thomas was the first (other than Jesus) to reveal the first part the secret. Peter was the first (other than Jesus) to reveal the second part of the secret. Paul elaborated on it more than Peter. But Paul was not the savior of the gentiles - Jesus is. It is true that Paul is the main one to speak to, or reach out the gentiles but one can't biblically elevate Paul above any of the others.

I personally love Peter and John the best.

The "secret" was revealed to the prophets of old and God says he will do NOTHING without telling his prophets. So, SST is right to quote
Genesis as the first prophecy of Jesus.

So He did reveal the gospel to his prophets but in a veiled manner.

cook

Sic Semper Tyranis · « **Reply #16 on:** December 11, 2005, 03:58:47 PM »

First things first. "Messiah" or Christ means to me the same thing it means to Protestant Christianity. When I used the word 'may' I did not mean it in the context of perhaps or maybe, but I meant it in the context of giving permission, such as "Yes, you may".

As for the gospel preached by Jesus and the 12 prior to the resurrection, I know only what Scripture knows. On general principle Jesus did the teach the Torah, why else would he say "If you believed Moses, you would believe Me." As to what He literally said Jesus did claim to be the Christ to the women at the well but what he actually taught is what is recorded in Scripture and that is parables and various thing he said to his disciples and others. As for the 12, since Jesus did most of the talking up until the resurrection I am not sure of what exactly the disciples did teach, though we do have an account of what Jesus told the 72 to teach in Luke's gospel. I suppose according to your definition the 'gospel of circumcision' can mean the Torah, but first of all the Torah was never meant as a means of achieving salvation it was written as the moral law of the universe and as a means of pointing to the Messiah. So by teaching the Torah, Jesus was in fact talking about Himself because the Torah was about Him. For it is impossible to separate faith in Him from the commands of the Torah, hence why their is no separation of gospels.

The "gospel" always existed, it just was not exported in mass until after the resurrection.

valerie · « **Reply #17 on:** December 11, 2005, 04:06:55 PM »

Quote

I guess your point went right over my head.

I didn't mean what I said as an insult. You asked me where and from whom I get my doctrine. I was pointing out that I only needed to read the book of Romans to understand it, that Paul was pretty clear in what he was saying. I didn't have to GET it from anybody other than Paul and the where was obvious, the Bible.

Quote

The article is saying God isn't activley punishing sin and rebellion as He had done in times past.

Yet I still disagree, God IS activley punishing people for sin and rebellion.

Quote

How do you figure works are tied to salvation? Must we add something to Christs finished work?

We can't add anything to Christ's finished work but we certainly owe Christ something for doing what he did. He holds the keys to forgiveness. If we don't repent then he offers no forgivenss.

Cook · « **Reply #18 on:** December 11, 2005, 04:15:09 PM »

joel

Alright, you had me a bit confused at first. But I checked out the site you ref'd.

Joel · « **Reply #19 on:** December 11, 2005, 04:30:38 PM »

"No it was not kept secret until Paul. If Paul appears to say so - then you need to take a closer look at the original language. Paul could not have said such a thing and meant what you are interpreting it to mean."

You are at odds with the scriptures, they say it was "Hid in God" "kept secret" . And what about the fact that even though Jesus was preaching a gospel, nobody, not even His own hand picked apostles knew knothing about any upcoming death burial and resurrection?

"The secret was that the Messiah was the creator/God. And the secret was that Jews and Gentiles were equal in his sight through grace."

Well, Jews and gentiles on equal footing before God is part of the mystery, but mind you, just a part. Paul came to further understandings through visions from the risen Lord you surely well know.

"Thomas was the first (other than Jesus) to reveal the first part the secret. Peter was the first (other than Jesus) to reveal the second part of the secret. Paul elaborated on it more than Peter."

Paul was specificly called to this ministry Eph 3.. Peter confined his ministry to those of the circumcision. Gal.2

" But Paul was not the savior of the gentiles - Jesus is."

I know that Paul is not the saviour to the gentiles. I also know the scriptures are very clear, that he IS the apostle TO the gentiles.

"It is true that Paul is the main one to speak to, or reach out the gentiles but one can't biblically elevate Paul above any of the others. "

No, I wouldn't put him above the others, but when you put him in his proper place, (apostle to the gentiles) you would want to take his doctrine above Peter and the 11 and their Judaism.

"I personally love Peter and John the best.'

Hhhmmmm?

"The "secret" was revealed to the prophets of old and God says he will do NOTHING without telling his prophets."

Good, then you shouldn't have any trouble showing me jew and gentile on equal footing before God then from there somewhere then, huh?

"So, SST is right to quote
Genesis as the first prophecy of Jesus."

I didn't know we were looking for the first prophesy of Jesus. I thought we were looking for the good message (gospel) we are to believe today for salvation. You know, jew and gentile on equal footing saved by putting our faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

"So He did reveal the gospel to his prophets but in a veiled manner."

I see. Will you show me a passage or two that will confirm this?

Then could you explain how you can reveal something in any fashion and still keep it secret? Or are you trying to say He revealed it, but they never got it?

His........Joel

Author Topic: which Gospel? (Read 14122 times)