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Zagzagel

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The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« on: August 03, 2006, 03:43:22 PM »
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So since the Trinity stands alone, why is it considered the most important foundational teaching by many Christian religions?

Trinitarians, why do you believe it when no bible writer teaches it in context?


Our new member, Georg, wrote the above in his new thread in the Christianity heading.

I would like to apply the same reasoning here, if I may, and ask why Jehovah Witnesses reason that only a 144, 000 are heaven bound?

The only place that this is found, about a group of people that has a specific number, is in the book of Revelations.

There are other interesting things about this 144 000 multitude.  From memory, they are the only ones who obtain the anointing and who are fit to feed the sheep.  The history is certianly interesting.

Georg.  It's been a while since I did a study about JW's and WatchTower teaching/doctrines.  Do they still teach this about this 144 000 heavenly class?  Years ago, I saw a forthcoming problem with this, especially fitting it into it eschatological stance.  But more on that later.

Peace.
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Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 07:15:08 PM »
I expected that the "logic' would be different.. therefore, I expected that no response from this fellow, in way of apology,  would come to this thread.

:(
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Tony N

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 03:24:28 PM »
A JW once told me only 144,000 would be saved.

To which I replied:

It also states in Revelation that there is a number of people that no man can number in Rev.7:9.

And there is the number as the sand of the sea. Try counting every particle of sand on a beach? That's a lot just for one beach.

The J.W. leader told the underling that what I said is normal for someone who doesn't understand the Bible.

Yea, right!

Tony
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2007, 05:45:42 PM »
Tony.  I so much agree.

I\\\'ve studied their beliefs, especially this piont where I get no response from them.

Even this georg fellow wont even bother to answer this q...haha..

I know why.

(Okay..  I\\\'m back temporarily just to make what I think is a beneficial comment)

;)
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thereject

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2007, 05:51:03 PM »
You two, TONY and Zag.. are not very clear to ME.

Perhaps you can consider me as one who hasn\'t studied anything about these Jw\'s people.

One question for the both of you.

Are Jw\'s unsaved in your opinion?
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g

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2007, 07:39:40 PM »
Quote from: Zagzagel on August 03, 2006, 03:43:22 PM
Quote
So since the Trinity stands alone, why is it considered the most important foundational teaching by many Christian religions?

Trinitarians, why do you believe it when no bible writer teaches it in context?

Our new member, Georg, wrote the above in his new thread in the Christianity heading.

I would like to apply the same reasoning here, if I may, and ask why Jehovah Witnesses reason that only a 144, 000 are heaven bound?

The only place that this is found, about a group of people that has a specific number, is in the book of Revelations.

There are other interesting things about this 144 000 multitude.  From memory, they are the only ones who obtain the anointing and who are fit to feed the sheep.  The history is certianly interesting.

Georg.  It's been a while since I did a study about JW's and WatchTower teaching/doctrines.  Do they still teach this about this 144 000 heavenly class?  Years ago, I saw a forthcoming problem with this, especially fitting it into it eschatological stance.  But more on that later.

Peace.

I just received a nofitication from the owner of the list and had not been here in ages.     This is the first post I have seen addressed to me so I will respond.

The number 144,000 is mentioned in the book of Revelation and evidently you disagree with my interpretation to whom this number pertains.  Fine.

However, I would like to mention that Scripture says God is one, not three.       The number 144,000 is open to interpretation, but the number three (3) is not found with reference to God.

You defend your number (3) and I will defend mine (144,000)  <big grin>



Regards,
George
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The Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Greek Lexicon (BDAG), financed by the Lutheran Missouri Synod, and supported by Concordia University eliminates many Trinitarian proof-texts:[Isaiah 44:24;Romans 9:5;Rev 3:14;John 1:1;1John 5:20;John 8:58;Titus 2:13;Col 1:15-18]

Challenge to Trinitarians:  No Trinitarian has successfully met the Challenge of No bible writer teaches the Trinity in Context. Be the first.

Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2007, 09:37:40 PM »
Goerg...

tsk tsk..

Your response was obvious to me.  By the way, are you still hanging out here?

This is not a numbers game.  I hate to admit this, but I am a smoker.  It seems to me that you are a smoker too!

I won't play your game.  I believe you know what I am talking about and you are just being dishonest about it.
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Rabbitball

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 09:15:42 PM »
Quote from: g on July 04, 2007, 07:39:40 PM
I just received a nofitication from the owner of the list and had not been here in ages.     This is the first post I have seen addressed to me so I will respond.

The number 144,000 is mentioned in the book of Revelation and evidently you disagree with my interpretation to whom this number pertains.  Fine.

However, I would like to mention that Scripture says God is one, not three.       The number 144,000 is open to interpretation, but the number three (3) is not found with reference to God.

You defend your number (3) and I will defend mine (144,000)  <big grin>



Regards,
George

Let's take this from a different angle. Read John 15:13 and then answer this: Has Jehovah performed the greatest act of love?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 09:17:14 PM by Rabbitball »
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Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 09:32:38 PM »
I called out G on his game.  He seems bent on this trinity theme which he tried to fit into this thread.  That might be a joke on his part but I highly doubt it.

I've studied the ways of George in other forums.  I allow him to defend himself here in this particular thread.

I know he can't answer this thread.  It's not about trinity at all.   This thread has to do with something he can't answer.. neither can his heirarchy.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 09:37:23 PM by Zagzagel »
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Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 07:40:14 PM »
The number 144,000 is mentioned in the book of Revelation and evidently you disagree with my interpretation to whom this number pertains.  Fine.

However, I would like to mention that Scripture says God is one, not three.       The number 144,000 is open to interpretation, but the number three (3) is not found with reference to God.

The problem with this response is that the JW's won't change their veiw on the 144,000.  They already built a doctrine on this and this they cannot let go of... like their own view of God when it comes to whether it is a trinity or not.

Goerg is therefore not truthful when he says that the JW's are "open" to the view of the 144, 000 teaching.

Rather, their teaching of the 144, 000 will be forced upon them due to the fact of other previous teachings which are now proving them wrong already.

What do I mean by that?

The 144,000 are the anointed.. the spirit filled.. and alone can lead the sheep..  and are divinely selected for heaven... and now the gates for these chosen have been closed early on and have shut out others.  What bothers me about this doctrine is that all others since THEY decided to closed the gates to heaven  must have died by now and can recieve another hope.  So who leads them now???  That is actually the question.  Their heaven hasn't come as predicted.. there is no more persons to be born to fit their theology to continue certian ideas of theirs.... so their theology MUST change... and I wonder how...

But Georg still believes it. 
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 07:45:27 PM by Zagzagel »
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Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 09:32:44 PM »
You two, TONY and Zag.. are not very clear to ME.

Perhaps you can consider me as one who hasn\'t studied anything about these Jw\'s people.

One question for the both of you.

Are Jw\'s unsaved in your opinion?

I avoided this question for a long time.. only because I was bent on a discussion with georg.

To answer this question.. they (the JW"s) hold to what is known as not common first century truths that have been established by the Church of that era.  Basically.. the JW's pov cannot be shown in past history except the view of their "christ" not being God.  Thus the "trinity" fight.

Based on what I write here I would say that they are not "saved" as to define them as "Christians" based on what has been defined as accepted truth 2000 years ago.

But I would call them children, however, needing further direction - if you will - and I have lots of patience.  That is one great attribute of God by the way.  :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 09:35:43 PM by Zagzagel »
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Tony N

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 03:11:13 PM »
Zag,
Being a JW or Christian, i.e. Baptist, Catholic etc. does not a non-Christian make. There are many who go to all the "Christian" churches who really are unsaved.

The core belief that I think determines if one is a Christian or not is: Do they truly believe God that Christ died for their sins? (1 Cor.15:1-4).

They can believe all sorts of nonsense as did the Corinthians and Galatians and still be saved.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: The WATCHTOWERS 144, 000
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2009, 05:53:37 PM »
The core belief that I think determines if one is a Christian or not is: Do they truly believe God that Christ died for their sins? (1 Cor.15:1-4).

They can believe all sorts of nonsense as did the Corinthians and Galatians and still be saved.

I agree with this.. somewhat.  You wrote it well I see.  God sent his Christ to do his business.  And for sure many believe a bunch of hogwash.. not just the JW's.

But you do know that the JW's accept/believe that Jesus the man was not resurrected don't you?

That is a telling difference between what is fit as doctrinal truth and what should be accepted/rejected by the body of Christ Jesus the Lord/and his Church.

JW's don't accept/believe that Jesus human body was resurrected/glorified.  They teach that Christ's human body was vaporized/when he/Jesus died.  And then/in his/Jesus resurrection../ Jesus was refashioned/recreated from the memory of God... as a spirit/or spirit form.   Now this is totally not a NT teaching from what I read as accepted scripture for the church as written by the Jew's who penned our beliefs.

As a added note.. they do not believe this "core belief" either as the early Church taught it.  Sad but true.

I like the fact, however, that many of them are genuinely seeking the creator of us all... the saviour of us all.  :)  hehe

   
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 05:59:05 PM by Zagzagel »
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