I lost my keys once, but don't see a parallel to that and salvation :)   Seriously, should you not argue first and prove that you are saved (whatever that means) before you debate if you can "lose" it?


Regards,
George

hahahah...

I used to say that years and years ago to my fellow arminians.  The basic idea is... is salvation I keep in the back of my pocket?  Some will see the point.

Another point is that I've argued strong Reformed Calvinists about the point of Salvation.  The more thinking ones told me that they cannot prove that they are saved.  They just have "faith" they say.... and believe the scriptures. 

I respect that to some degree.  Why?  Because as mentioned earlier, they were more sure than me to some degree...

My former belief forced me to believe that I was a "born again... then born again, then born again..and again..and again...etc"   

It was an awful experience that I wish on no man or woman.

I don't ignore those scriptures, rightly divide them though I do.

What about "If we are faithless, He remains faithfull; He cannot deny Himself"?

Have you ever wondered how it is so easy to combat scripture with scripture?

makes me wonder why nobody believes they should be rightly divided. 2 Tim. 2:15

It's the only way they make sense.

I grant that some of them will ignore such references, but many others of them do not ignore the references as you suggest.  The key word you use here is "Everyone".. which tells me you have not communicated with many/all of them.. or not the more knowledgable ones at the very least.

Let me make it a little clearer for you: Every OSAS proponent I've debated has either ignored or provided very inadequate rebuttals of all passages that speak of people turning from the faith. And yes, several of them have either taken theology courses or received degrees in theology.

Despite what you may think, you are not the most knowledgable person on matters of theology.

My second response was to Georg about salvation in the back pocket sort of thing... it was so funny to me because that is actually the argument I use against a belief like yours.

A strawman does not an argument make. I may as well argue that it is OSAS believers that keep salvation in their back pocket - expecting it to be a "get out of hell free" card.

Despite what you may think, you are not the most knowledgable person on matters of theology.

LOL

Apparently, you do not know what I think at all.


Let me make it a little clearer for you: Every OSAS proponent I've debated has either ignored or provided very inadequate rebuttals of all passages that speak of people turning from the faith. And yes, several of them have either taken theology courses or received degrees in theology.

Hmmm... I'm guessing they probably feel the same way as you do.. did... still do.  The emotional/mental impact of thinking that someone out-argued you is not easily accepted.   Therefore, many/most end up leaving a debate feeling they proved the other wrong.  You and I both seen this happen many times.  But there is no further comments needed between the two of us in this particular area.  (Unless you see an importance to continue with this line, of course )

A strawman does not an argument make. I may as well argue that it is OSAS believers that keep salvation in their back pocket - expecting it to be a "get out of hell free" card.

Indeed they (OSAS) do believe in this "hell" thing (most of them anyway).  You know by now that I do not believe in such a thing.  But this is not about that.  This is about the comment of keeping salvation in the back pocket sort of thing.

Along with that comment I added that I do not wish that anyone goes through what I went through.... when I once an Arminian believer.

The thought of "losing" your salvation is quite interesting.  George asked this question:

Seriously, should you not argue first and prove that you are saved (whatever that means) before you debate if you can "lose" it?

We know that George is JW.  And his understanding of the salvation plan is quite different than yours (and mine.. and others).  So, to the Watch Tower, you are still in your sins and in danger of recieving the wrath of God when the final war happens.  You are included in their Christiandom scenerio where all of Christiandom will be judged because they believe that outside of their faith system no man/woman will be "saved".

Nevertheless, he still raises an important question.  How does one KNOW that he is saved??  And I made comments to that... in my silly unqualified non-scholarly way!!  ROFLMAO!!!!

But.. their ARE different "saved" scenerios in the living word of God.  Perhaps you may want to actualize that???  For example:

Jesus told the disciples (and anyone in that region who heard the messsage) that "he who endures till the end will be saved".  That can be found in the book of Matthew (at least that is the proof text that many scholars use).  But, what is "saved" in that passage??  Was in not them who fleed Jerusalem?

Tis all for now.

(Went off topic here for a moment.. hoping the creator of this thread don't mind?)

Be well.







 

So where do you stand on the issue?

Thanks for the question (and don't sweat the earlier stuff. )

How I stand on the issue is interesting (thinking to myself)

I've had my many debates with Reformed theology.  After all is said and done, I've come to the conclusion that they are partial universalists.  haha  (they hate it when I say that, except for a few who give a good jolly laugh)

But the bottom line is that I agree with OSAS... no matter the conclusion of Reformed theologians (I disagree with their conclusion that many are destined to "hell" just as the saved ... in their understanding... are destined to heaven)

Have you ever debated Tony, the forums "universalist"?  To me, he IS a Reformed who went alllllllll....the way and understands why God chooses some now and rejects many.... the story is only half told in the Reformed stance.  At least Tony N is able to explain why many are on the road to destruction (narrow is the way and few that find it.. broad is the way..etc)

(I add them tidbits to get your mind on why I agree with OSAS, but only disagree with their ulimate conclusion.. but we won't go that far.. I just want to stick to the idea of OSAS)

So...lets get back the the creator of this thread...his/her second post contains thoughts (bible quotes) which are quite interesting.  Anything there you want to address?

What I found interesting is how this person is seeing the wheat/tares illustration.  I think that is a good point.  What do you think?

The reason that I think the wheat/tares illustration is a good point is because the tares never become the wheat and the wheat never become the tares... but they are allowed to grow together.

Be well.

"And opponents of OSAS seem to ignore John 10...or maybe misinterpret it.  Let me take it from this angle.  What must I DO in order to lose salvation?"

I am glad you brought that writing up kainos
  Give me your take on John 10:27-30.

Joel