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Author Topic: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some  (Read 3789 times)

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Tony N

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Re: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 12:43:58 PM »

Dear Rabbitball,
Could you please provide me with a Bible verse that tells me "God is not in our timeline"? I'm having a hard time finding that Platonistic philosophical idea in my Bible.

Now then, let's just pretend you are right that God is not in our timeline.
Let's pretend that everything that happened in the past and will happen in the future happens in the present with God even if the Bible is totally silent on this Platonistic idea.

Does it really change the fact concerning these verses:

Act 13:48 Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian." (Concordant Literal New Testament)

It doesn't say that if they believe they will be set for life eonian (life pertaining to the eons or ages to come).

Eph 1:4-5  according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,  (5)  in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,

It doesn't say God will give us a crack at salvation by some supposed free will and that if we make the right decision then God will choose us before the disruption of the world. Does that make sense to you? BTW, it is "in accord with the delight of His will, not due to our supposed "free will."

Also, friend, you make a big deal out of God giving us a chance at salvation. But the Bible tells us that salvation is by choice (His choice of us) not by chance. God already knows all the ones who will fill up the body of Christ. Not because He does not live in our time line but because before the disruption He chose exactly who it would be who would be included and who would not.

So since God chose some to be believing He had to make the choice that, before certain ones would ever be born, that He would not give them the grace or faith to be believing. So, in the final analysis, it is God's responsibility as to who gets saved for the oncoming eons/ages and who does not.

But lest you think God mean and cruel to do such a thing with His own creation, this is not the end all for those not chosen. For God will have all mankind to be saved (1 Tim.2:4) for Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Tim.2:6) and God is the Saviour of all mankind (1 Tim.4:10) and that we are to charge and teach that He is (1 Tim.4:11). Now if God is not going to save all, why teach that He is going to? Does that make sense?

Tony
http://saviourofall.org

God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some  
 
Since God chose you to be believing before you were born or put into practice anything good or bad, does it not stand to reason that if He saved me He must save all?

You're stepping into a theological hornets' nest here. I can't say for certain that my answer will be in line with everyone else's, but I have one.

God is not in our timeline. Everything to him is present. What we do now is in God's "present time". Everything we have done is in God's "present time". And everything we will do is in God's "present time". So if God wants to know what will happen tomorrow, he knows, as it is "present" to him.

God gave us the chance at salvation. By his foreknowledge, he knew who would take it and who wouldn't. So why didn't he just create those who would take it? Again, it's foreknowledge. If he doesn't create my grandfather, I don't exist. The foreknowledge of me being saved is a mitigating factor in favor of creating a grandfather who doesn't. (Not that I know what happened; this is an example.)

If torment were eternal (believe me, it isn't) but if torment were eternal and God chose someone to go there before they were even born, how can God be just?

God chose to give us free will. Without free will, there is no free choice to love God. But with free will comes the capacity not to choose, and with foreknowledge, God knows who will take which path. So by allowing someone to be created, God knows what they will do "before" they are born. ("Before" is in quotes because everything is in God's "present".)

How can God overcome when He is found to have less righteousness than the creatures of His making if, indeed, He does choose people to be tortured in flames for eternity before they were even born?

Remember, there is no true before with God. God created people who he knew would reject him based on factors we may never know. Some of those seem to be based on who gets saved. It may be that the impetus to getting someone saved was someone's bad example, who knows?

God's whole evangel/gospel is that "He may be just and a justifier . . ." due to having Christ die for humanity. But He cannot be just if He is as diabolical as many perceive Him to be.

Tony N.

If a million people have to reject the gospel in order to find one who is saved, is it worth it? Apparently God thinks so... :smt045


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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 10:01:05 PM »

Lol.  Can't believe this thread is resurrected.  Glad it is.

For anyone not understanding my conversion with Val, Mormons believe that you live as spirit before you come to earth.  This means that the gods birthed you as spirit and eventually you came to earth as a "pre" something (ordination/destination)... thus confusing the biblical usage of the terminology use by first century Christian writers.

But I want to ask Tony this question now.

Why would God choose some now and not choose others?  What is the purpose for that exactly?  I think there is a gist of that answer here in this thread. 

Have you studied Calvin/Spurgeon teachings?  They say that the purpose of God is to show his wrath too.  So what about the aspect of Gods wrath?

Did God create a race of humans just to relieve his good and bad emotions?  Strange question.. but I asked this of one "strong" Calvinist and he answered in the affirmative.  Now by "strong" I mean probably he what would be called a "six pointer".  Most five pointers are more careful and try to protect their doctine by not confessing too much. 

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Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!

Tony N

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Re: God chose you before you were born AND didn't choose some
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2009, 12:17:56 PM »

HI Zag,
Why has God been choosing people for the past almost 2000 years and not others?

God's program is kind of like a Fortune 1 business. In this business He needs only so many managers and so many workers. The business won't really open for operation until the commencement of the next two eons/ages (the 1000 year eon and the new earth eon.

In that business we will have an administration:

Eph 1:10-12  to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth"  (11)  in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,  (12)  that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ."

Notice what the business end of that administration is? It is to head up all in the Christ, both all in the heavens (not heaven but heavens) and all on the earth.

So God only needs so many people to be a part of that business.

We don't accuse Ford or Chrysler of wrongdoing for choosing just so many people to be in their businesses and neither should we accuse God of wrongdoing.

Ford and Chrysler try to choose the best. God does just the opposite. He chooses the worst.

1Co 1:26-29  For you are observing your calling, brethren, that there are not many wise according to the flesh; not many powerful, not many noble,  (27)  but the stupid ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the wise, and the weak ones of the world God chooses, that He may be disgracing the strong,  (28)  and the ignoble and the contemptible ones of the world God chooses, and those who are nobodies, that He may be discarding those who are something,  (29)  so that no flesh at all should be boasting in God's sight.

But this is not the end all of God's program.

Eventually the rest of mankind will come into the blessings of what Christ secured for them because He ransomed them too (1 Timothy 2:4-6). But the rest of all mankind don't really come into the blessings until the end of the ages.

There are three stages to God's program:

1Co 15:22-28  For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."  (23)  Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit [class], Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's [class or group] in His presence;"  (24)  thereafter the consummation [class or group], whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."  (25)  For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.  (26)  The last enemy is being abolished: death.  (27)  For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him."  (28)  Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)"

Spurgeon and Calvin's plan turn God into the most hideous monster far far worse than the pagan gods.
In their program God brings people into existence for the sole purpose of torturing them in flames for eternity. Some god, huh? Now that's the kind of god I can bow down with heartfelt adoration and worship with a loving, thankful heart! Not!
Spurgeon and Calvin's eyes were just not open to God's great plan of the ages, to head up all in the Christ and for God to be All in all.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 12:23:10 PM by Tony N »
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?
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