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Paladin

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DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« on: May 24, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »


Is Jesus Christ the logos of God? Or is that a doctrine of men accomplished by the working of Satan?

SATAN STRIKES
I. Satan struck. He had "lost the big one" and was focused on developing some way to keep men from following God's new testament record of his new covenant. So he considered how he could convince man that there is a "better way" to teach sinners and new converts about this way of life called "Christianity." He appealed to man's ego, man's sense of self, man's appreciation of his own sense of what's logical. "When you teach new people about Christianity, begin with the life of Christ, the logical place to begin," was his message. And the leaders bought it. It appealed to their sense of selfworth, and also appealed to their own self interest as teachers, to come up with a new way to approach the truth of the gospels.

It was logical, it was written, and it was chronoligically real. Which is precisely why it should have been suspect in the first place. Christianity is a matter of faith, not logic. And "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the logos of God." [Rom 10:17] "Faith" is not a product of man's logic, it is a result of God's word working in Man's heart to convict and convince Man of his need for Salvation.

Which brings us to the next step in understanding what Satan accomplished.

"PERSON" OR "PERSONIFICATION?"
II. Is there a difference between a "person" and a "personification?"

According to Webster's new International Dictionary, a "person" is a rational, self-conscious being.
To "Personify" is to attribute human characteristic or nature to an inanimate object or to an abstraction.

An example of "personification" is found in the sixtieth anniversary issue of Life Magazine, page 42, in which is stated - "Colonel Charles Lindbergh, who flew solo from the North American continent to Europe, is the American Dream made flesh."

Now, I think it safe to say, we still recognize there is an "American Dream." And that the American Dream can still be personalized and personified and lived among men to this day. Barack Hussein Obama is an example of one for whom the American Dream has become flesh.

Was Jesus the "Logos" who "became flesh?"
 
Is the "person" of the Logos of God established in scripture, or is it rather that the logos was "Personified" similar to the example of Colonel Charles Lindbergh, a personification of the American Dream, in which the American Dream became flesh.

III. PERSON
Is there a standard established in scripture, by which a "person" can be identified or defined, or to put it another way, What does scripture require to be considered a "person?"

In scripture, a person is equivalent to a soul, which is comprised of a spirit in a body. When God breathed into Adam the "breath of life" Adam "became a living soul." [Gen 2:7]

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."[Gen 2:7]

Death is a separation of the spirit from the body: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." [Ecc 12:7]

Seventy "souls" went into Egypt: "all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten." [Gen 46:27]

Seventy "persons" went into Egypt: "Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons;"[Deu 10:22]

Eight "persons" went into the ark: "In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;" [Gen 7:13]

Eight "souls" were saved in the ark; "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was apreparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."[I Pet 3:20]

A logical conclusion from scripture is, "a person" is equivalent to "a soul."

IDENTITY
IV. Which brings us to the concept of this essay. Can it be shown anywhere in scripture, that a "person" is ever identified as the logos of God?

It must then be defined and made clear what it means to say "a person is identified as..."

It means to identify a person as a thing other than simply a reference to a person "named" a thing. For example, in Israel, the name of a man who refused to build up his brother's house, is identified as "the house of him that hath his shoe loosed."

It came about this way; "If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall goin unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her. 6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother. 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her; 9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house. 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, "The house of him that hath his shoe loosed."[Deu 25:5-10]

In the example above, a name is tied by reference to a man, for the deeds of the man. The man is not the man's deeds, nor is the man the name he is given. It is a name given to the man based on his deeds. It is a name recognized by all who hear it, as referencing one who is identified as a man who refused to build up his dead brother's house.

Deeds often brought name references as reminders of deeds:  A city was called by a name as a memorial of deeds done therein: "Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because..."[ Gen 11:9]

Edomites were named for a vegetable eaten by their forefather, Esau: "And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint: 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom." [Gen 25:29-30]

Isaac named a well "Sheba" to remind his people of an oath: "And they said, We saw certainly that the LORD was with thee: and we said, Let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee; 29 That thou wilt do us no hurt, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done unto thee nothing but good, and have sent thee away in peace: thou art now the blessed of the LORD. 30 And he made them a feast, and they did eat and drink. 31 And they rose up betimes in the morning, and sware one to another: and Isaac sent them away, and they departed from him in peace. 32 And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well which they had digged, and said unto him, We have found water. 33 And he called it Shebah: therefore the name of the city is Beersheba unto this day.[Gen 26:28-33]

Several names in scripture hold significance for reasons having nothing to do with who the namebearer is.

"And when the LORD saw that Leah was hated, he opened her womb: but Rachel was barren. 32 And Leah conceived, and bare a son, and she called his name Reuben: for she said, Surely the LORD hath looked upon my affliction; now therefore my husband will love me. {Reuben: that is, See a son} 33 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Because the LORD hath heard that I was hated, he hath therefore given me this son also: and she called his name Simeon. {Simeon: that is, Hearing} 34 And she conceived again, and bare a son; and said, Now this time will my husband be joined unto me, because I have born him three sons: therefore was his name called Levi. {Levi: that is, Joined} 35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing. {Judah: that is, Praise}"[Gen 29:31-35]

Even Rachel understood the value of "naming" for an event, or as a reminder: "And Rachel said, God hath judged me, and hath also heard my voice, and hath given me a son: therefore called she his name Dan. {Dan: that is, Judging}" [Gen 30:6]

NAME ABOVE EVERY NAME
V. God established a name which is above every name when he "magnified thy word above all thy name." [Psa 138:2]

God prophesied: "Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high." [Isa 52:13]

And God promised His Messiah he would be exalted, and given a name above every name: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name"[Phil 2:9] At what point in scripture and a corresponding point in human history do these two events come together in the narrative account?

We pause first to clarify a point. What is meant by "gave" him a name above every name?" Is it considered "given" at that point at which God reveals it to him? Or is it only "given" when he actually "receives" it? Jesus is the only one who knew the "new name" that is to be given to him, and which he is going to write on the saints who overcome. So according to this view, Jesus "receives" the new name when he is given the revelation as to what the "new name" is to be. Clearly, he has this knowledge in Rev 3:12, but it is not yet revealed to mankind in general, nor to the saints specifically. Even in Rev 19:12-13 he does not tell us he has received the new name, only tells us what that name will be when he does receive it.
 
VI. LOGOS OF GOD
In 48 A.D., Paul explained to the whole world, a mystery, a concept that was in God's mind, for his people: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20]

Twelve years later, in 60 A.D. Paul says he was given a commision to "FULFILL THE WORD OF GOD," and he then tells us he preached this mystery TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" [Col 1:24]

PAUL SAYS HIS MINISTERY WAS "TO FULFILL THE LOGOS [WORD] OF GOD:"
"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to FULFILL THE LOGOS [WORD] OF GOD; Paul goes on to explain that the word of God was hidden in a mystery, from ages and generations: 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;" [Col 1:25-27]

And Paul In explaining that which was mystery from ages and generations, tells us that this mystery, this "WORD [LOGOS] OF GOD" is "CHRIST LIVING IN YOU," [Gal 2:20] and that this ("christ in you") is the hope of glory. "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" [Col 1:23-28]

So according to Paul, there was a mystery called "logos of God", hidden from ages and from generations, and it consisted of a concept of the saints losing themselves in Christ so thoroughly, it was no longer them living their life, but Christ living in them. When others see this, they will seek God so they also will have this blessed life, and in turn, be a blessing to yet others.

That was the focus and scope of the "word of God" THAT is when "the logos" was personified among men. THAT mission, of giving that concept to men, was given to the Apostle Paul.

God had already assigned to this mystery, glory among the gentiles, and assigned it to Paul to spread through preaching: "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;" [Col 1:27]

VII. "WORD OF GOD" TIED TO "NAME" GIVEN TO JESUS
Remember back up the page when God "placed his word above his name:" "for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." [Psa 138:2]

Not until 69 A.D. was the "word of God" tied to Jesus, in the form of a name given. "The word of God" is NOT who Jesus was. It is a NEW NAME Jesus was GIVEN. And the record of this transaction was not made public until 69 A.D. So it was historically impossible for the New Testament generation of Christians (First century) to have had such an understanding that "Jesus is the word of God."

AT LEAST 27 years (two generations) passed between the ascension of Jesus and John's writing of the apokolypse, in which he tells us of a NEW NAME Jesus has, but doesn't yet reveal what it is;

John, in the Apokolypse, references a "NEW NAME" -
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." [Rev 3:12]

VIII. NEW NAME
Notice Three significant things about this "new name:"
1) It is 69 a.d. when John speaks of it as a "New name" -[onoma kainon] kainon is an accusative neuter adjective modifying the noun onoma, and means "new, not there before, not yet used."

2) Jesus is going to "write his new name" on "Him that overcometh." The significance of this is found in the practice of "branding" possessions, such as cattle, lambs, etc. He is marking his people with a brand of ownership. Just as God is going to write his new name on Jesus [Rev 19:12-13] He is "going to write his new name" on the saints.[Rev 3:12]

3) The events of Rev 19 are yet future, as unfilfilled prophecy. So the "New Name" has yet to be given to Jesus. It could not therefore, have been a name applied to Jesus in John's gospel. Nor could it be a name "from eternity" nor "from the beginning of creation" as some claim, as it is by definition a "new, unused name." John tells us in 69 a.d. that it is an unknown name, "which NO MAN KNEW but He himself."

John only reveals what this "new name" is to be, not when it is to be applied: this name Jesus was given which NO MAN KNEW but he HIMSELF - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." [Rev 19:11-13]

"THE WORD OF GOD" then, is a name which God raised to a position above his own Holy Name, and now in prophecy, appoints in glory to his son, the "new name" which is "above every name" which is to be written on his people. And THIS is how the first generation of Christians had it presented to their understanding.

And Paul wrote this [61 a.d.] 27 years before John's statement in John 1:1 [96 a.d.], so people already knew that "word of God" is a name above every name, to be given to Jesus at some future time, to remind people of this "mystery made known" in "Christ living in the saints." [The "personification of the logos"]

IX. "PERSONIFICATION"
Remember the example above of the "personification" of the American dream? The whole point there is to demonstrate how the development of the personification of the Logos was understood by the "first-generation" Christians.

Remember the issue to be resolved? "Can it be shown anywhere in scripture, that a "person" is ever referenced as the logos of God? It has been shown that there is no "person" ever addressed as being the word of God. It has been demonstrated how the American dream was personified using the same language John used in John 1:14, "The American dream was made flesh" in the person of Barack Hussein Obama. The word of God was made flesh in the persons of the saints as they so lived life that it is no longer they that live, but Christ living in them.

II Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Jesus is never addressed nor referenced as "the word of God." He is often referenced as "the Lamb of God" and "the Son of God," but never as "the Word of God." THAT is a NEW name he is to be given. AND it is a name he will write on his people. So to say Jesus is the logos of God is misleading, because it is a new, unused name written, both on Jesus, [Rev 3:12] AND on his people BY Jesus. [Rev19:13]

"Logos" has a simple meaning in the Greek, and John did not intend to start the controversy that has arisen over his use of logos in John 1:1-3. The theologians, stuck in a trinity theology, insisted that logos take on a new meaning in the last book written of the New Testament of the bible; insisting their interpretation is correct, and claiming John's language is "ambiguous", and "a mystery," and something that cannot be understood by the "finite mind of man"

John's language is NOT ambiguous; the mystery was explained by Paul; and the mind of man is not finite, it is made in the image of God, and is limitless. Finite means "measurable; i.e., capable of being counted." The diversity of the mind of man does not fit that parameter.

X. CHRIST IN YOU = JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN FLESH
Paul had already preached the logos of God to the world, it was already understood to reference "Christ in you, the hope of glory" and it was already personified in the saints, had become flesh in those same saints, and dwelled among men, also in those same saints.

I John 4:2 uses Eleeluthota, a perfect active participle, which emphasizes the ongoing result from a past action. And it says "Jesus Christ is come in flesh" NOT "in THE flesh." It is not speaking of some alleged "incarnation" of a pre-existent spirit or deity.

This has to do with the fact that it is no longer you that lives, but Jesus "liveth in you." Look at 2 Cor 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ IS IN YOU, except ye be reprobates?" CHRIST IS PRESENTLY LIVING IN HIS SAINTS. THAT is paramount to salvation. And THAT is the meaning inherent in the passage's meaning in John's epistles.

Similarly in 2 John 7, erxomenon = (exercomai) vppnam-s participle; present; middle or passive deponent; accusative;masculine;s.

II John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. [NOTE: It does NOT say "in THE flesh"]

Look at what Paul teaches - Gal 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in *the flesh I live by *the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [NOTE: The definite articles are missing in the Greek in these two instances.]

Christ "LIVETH" - NOT LIVED - LIVETH in me.
zee = verb, indicative, present active; emoi = dative noun; Xristos = nominative singular

The life that I NOW LIVE - present active, is Christ presently actively living in me.

To say "came" or "has come" completely changes the complexity of the message to a nonentity. Jesus is alive and well and living in the flesh of his saints, today. THAT is the message of John's epistles.

It matter not to me at all, if John was addressing gnostics, his message remains one of telling us Christ lives in my flesh, as I submit my flesh to him as my example.

Paul's thesis on the logos of God being personified in the saints as we no longer live, but Christ lives in us, remains as true today as it was when Paul penned it. I do not reference the flesh of the body in which Jesus walked and taught and died; I reference the flesh in which '"Christ lives unto this day, in that of his saints. Christ "is come" (present passive)[II John 7]; "is come" perfect active" [I John 4:2] and now is in the flesh of his saints; and present active [Gal 2:20]. It is covered from every angle by both John's epistles and Paul's writings.

XI. "GOD BECAME FLESH" WAS NOT AN ISSUE
So until at least 69 a.d., the saints had no idea of Jesus being named "The word of God" at some future point in time. It was NOT an issue.

Then, when John wrote his epistle in 96 a.d., and began with "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God," There was absolutely NO issue of Jesus being the word of God, because it was already understood for over sixty years, that the saints, living so that it was not they who lived, but Christ living in them, was the personification of the word of God, and the word of God was personified in the saints, and dwelled among men. The logos concept was already understood prior to John's gospel.

It was left to later generations, who studied the new testament from the standpoint of "life of Christ" FIRST, who began to understand John's gospel to reference an preexistent Jesus who somehow became a human.

If the books are studied in the order in which they were revealed by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they CANNOT be understood to reference a preexistent Jesus.
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Solaris Paradox

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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 04:38:23 AM »

A wall of text so epic that it could only have been copied and pasted.

I look forward to seeing the Christians of this forum respond. As for me, the atheist, I shall lean back in my cushy computer chair and nibble popcorn until they do.

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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 05:13:28 AM »

Do you have a bible that is hand written? Or is it a copy? Are the pages stapled or pasted? I simply imitate perfection.
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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 01:51:29 AM »

Was referring to the idea that it was pre-prepared, perhaps posted on multiple forums. I don't see that as something you could've realistically typed into the forum's text box.

Zagzagel

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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 03:01:06 PM »

That was an interesting read. 

For many years I've wondered about that one question too.. that this person is asking.

I finally see no need to seek that answer out for myself. 
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Zagzagel

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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 04:04:31 PM »

Christianity is a matter of faith, not logic.

I think this is the best place to start.. which is a part of your words used in your opening.

IF you think that Christianity is not logical.. but built on faith.. then you have to answer questions which are logical.

Why are you confused on the issue that "Faith" and "Logic" are seperate issues?

The biblical record determines that the Christians "faith" is built on LOGIC... not on sand but on a Rock as Jesus said.

Many scholars have written and settled this question already.

Why you don't know this knowledge confounds me cause you seem like a studious student?

But alas... for many faith means BLIND faith.... like a myth or something which one believes in without proof..... nothing solid.  But be assured that the Christian belief has a foundation of stone.. not sand..
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 04:07:22 PM by Zagzagel »
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Re: DID JOHN SAY "GOD BECAME FLESH?" or was it Satan at work?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 08:14:33 PM »

God-in-Flesh:

 Bible says that Jesus is the God in flesh, but Gita says for a Hindu,
That Krishna is the God in flesh, let us analyse both these views?
I am not touching Buddhism and Islam in this topic because Islam believes
That Mohammad is not God in flesh and He was only messenger of God.
Buddhism keeps silent on the God and no question of God in flesh for them.
If the Bible told that Krishna was not God in flesh or if Gita told that
Jesus was not God in flesh, then both Bible and Gita are valid.
When the scriptures does not mention like this in complete version
How can you interpret your own scripture in the other way?
More over all of you whether Christians or Hindus have to accept
The concept of one God, there is no other alternative way in this.
You say that your God created this entire world and Hindus say that
Their God created this same entire world, unfortunately my dear friends!
I do not find two worlds and I find only one world! Now tell me
 
Whether this single entire world is created by Christian God or Hindu God?
One of you or both should be wrong and in that case who is wrong?
Either you should have two separate worlds or you should have single God.
If both the scriptures are wrong and both Gods did not create this Universe
Then the vote goes to Science, which says that the world exists by itself.
They say that no body created this world and it is self-existent.
Since both are sacred scriptures, let us solve this problem by analysis.
If you are rigid of your own scripture, I am not touching you at all.
If one is rigid where is the place for logical analysis and judgement?
In the court if one party says that what ever it says is the only truth
What is the necessity of the court, advocates, arguments and judgement?
If you leave rigidity and become flexible to accept the truth
After analysis only, you are most welcome to my Universal Spirituality.
 
Even in the small worldly matters, we apply open mind and analysis,
I wonder why you are not applying the same open mind and analysis
In such most important spiritual knowledge which decides everything.
The word Jesus stands for Human Incarnation and similarly the word Krishna.
In scriptures, we have to take the internal meanings and not simple external
Meanings for the sacred words, each word is ocean of divine knowledge.
Bible says that the lamb will come in red robe, here what is the meaning
For the word lamb? Is it simple animal with four legs and one tail.
Does this mean that Jesus will come again as animal? Here you say
That the word lamb stands for the Lord who is pure and innocent
Like the lamb, at one place you take the inner meaning and at other place
You take the external meaning! Therefore, the word Jesus means God in flesh,
Which means that the Lord comes in human form with blood and flesh.
 
This is a great concept, which Jesus tried to establish to the devotees.
Till then the Islam believed only in the formless God called Allah.
Islam does not treat Mohammad as God in flesh even today.
Jesus told that He and His father are one and the same, what does this mean?
Here the word father does not mean Joseph, the husband of His mother Mary.
If you take the meaning of the word of father in the external sense only
It is impossible because two human beings cannot be one and the same.
That Creator is indicated by the word father and human incarnation by the word Jesus
Both are one and the same since God pervaded all over the human incarnation.
If you take the meaning of the word Jesus as a particular human body only,
Then the meaning of the word father should also mean another particular human body.
In that case both the human bodies cannot be one and the same because
We are seeing the father and the son represented by two separate human bodies.
Similarly Jesus told that one could reach His father only through Him.
 
This again should mean that nobody could see or meet Joseph without Jesus.
But it is not so because several people have seen Joseph even before Jesus was born.
You are taking the inner meaning for the word father and say that father means God.
But for the word Jesus you are taking a particular human body only.
This is not justified and even a child will contradict this different approach.
When it is said that Jesus will baptise by fire, does it mean Jesus will sprinkle fire?
In such case the baptized person will be burnt with fire, therefore, the word fire
Means Knowledge as said in Gita "Jnanaagnih", moreover if you stick the word
Jesus to a particular human body only and if you say that Jesus exists even now,
Please show Me Jesus as the same human body to My eyes also, in the past
When Jesus was alive everyone could show Jesus as human body to anyone.
Whether a believer or a non-believer saw Jesus as human body in the past.

I will answer this the next day.  Peace to you.
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