Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: In Defense of Young Earth Creationism  (Read 11897 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2006, 09:48:55 AM »

Don't want the thread to get stale  :)  SO here are some more thoughts.

As we all employ a variety of methods to test the truth and merit of propositions, the prime distinction between us, as argued above, is that folks like myself are not so willing to dismiss the validity of a 'fact' gained through, say, historical inquiry.   There are at least two underlying assumptions beneath the attitude that elevates 'scientific' facts over others.  The first is the most important:

1.  It is argued that methodological naturalism is a required default for scientific inquiry.

I don't agree on a number of levels.  For one thing, methodological naturalism often morphs seemlessly into philosophical naturalism in the explication of many alleged 'scientific facts.'  Clearly, eliminating explanatory options from the beginning of the inquiry is going to result in only some of the options getting a fair hearing.  You can't imagine a police detective coming to the scene where a dead body lies deliberately refusing to even consider the possibility that it was homicide.  Nor is it compatible with forensic science to preclude the possibility of pre-meditation.  In fact, forensic sciences are often used to try to determine if an intelligent agent is behind a death.  If a detective refused to even consider the possibility that a person was murdered, do we think he could come up with a way to explain the knife sticking out of the back without allowing for the possibility of murder?  Sure.  (The movie "Final Destination" is an imaginative play on such possibilities.  ;)  ).  Would that mean he has generated a true account of the person's death?  Hardly.

As an explicit experimentalist, my view implicitly requires an orderly universe, and that might be described as 'methodological naturalism' but in neither case is the fact that the universe is orderly to begin with require further 'explanation.'  Newton, for example, in his Principia, attributed the order of the universe to God, but he would have been just as successful if he had not made any attribution, either to God, or to anything else.

This is an important point.  Many people point to perceived monumental scientific successes as reason for elevating science as a mechanism for learning about the world, but experimentally speaking, where the tire hits the road, these successes rest on an orderliness of the universe, the source of which is irrelevant to generating those successes.  I'm sure this is a point we'll return to.

2.  To return to the police detective forming an explanation for a man's death, if say for example he has a knife in his back, without reference to intelligent causes, it should be clear that merely providing 'explanations' does not necessarily mean you have anything close to a true explanation.

As studies involved in research into the 'anthropic principle,' largely a SECULAR area of research, make clear, the universe bears marks of orderliness that defy statistical conceptions.  According to these, the universe is apparently not set up arbitrarily.  Where did these 'tweaks' come from?  Isn't 'God' a plausible possibility?  But the philosophical naturalist eliminates 'God' from even being considered, under the view that this would be in defiance of the scientific method.  In light of the ability for other views to 'explain' the data (no matter how tortured the statistics are in those matters), it is believed that 'God' would be an unnecessary conclusion.

But that would be a bit like asking us to believe that positing a murderer is unnecessary just because a police detective can imagine how, given enough time, a knife fell out of a cabinet, landed in a toaster, which was depressed by the weight, then flung out, bounced onto a trampoline (we can't find the trampoline, but we know it HAD to be there), hurtled into the air, deflected off of a tree limb, and plunged into the back of a passerby.  Given enough time, anything that's possible must happen, right?  That's what Harry said in response to my anthropic principle arguments, and the above scenario IS possible.   However, does anyone think that just because we've been able to come up with a 'plausible' explanation for how a man was stabbed in the back without positing another man stabbing him, we've really come up with an explanation that conforms with reality?

No.

So, the apparent coherence in an evolutionary model doesn't mean very much to me, especially in light of the fact that it willfully excludes certain possibilities right from the start.  It may very well be that experimentally speaking, no answer could be given to how life arose on this planet.  I would be content with being agnostic on that point.  However, many of those who elevate 'science' pin epistemological emphasis on a theory that 'explains.'  However, the 'explanation' proceeds from unreasonable presumptions.

If you are like me, if you are starting out from the bottom up, you haven't made any judgements yet about whether or not there is a God, or whether or not order in the universe is best ascribed to God, or some other force, or nothing at all.   As such, I would object to a 'police detective' offering as fact an explanation that begins by eliminating other valid possibilities.  An 'explanation' is not the same as a 'fact.'

So, now when I turn my attention to other areas of inquiry that will bear on the question of YEC, if I don't have the preconception that I must adopt a philosophical naturalistic POV for EXPLAINING everything, certain data needs to be factored into the equation.  By way of example (and example only), if I come to the historical conclusion that Jesus rose from the dead, this is a 'fact' that must drive a development of a coherent worldview that meshes with reality.  If, however, I insist on interpreting everything from a philosophical naturalistic POV, and I emphasize explanations proceeding from that assumption as being superior, then the historical conclusion that Jesus rose from the dead is no longer a historical fact, but merely something that now needs to be explained.

Can you explain something like the resurrection within a philosophical naturalistic POV?  Sure you can.  But only by dismissing or de-valuing the weight of the historical method.  Is that really reasonable?  I don't think so.  The mere fact that such an explanation can be invented doesn't mean that that explanation is in line with reality.  It may simply follow from the assumptions.

So, to return to the example of variation with limitations that is OBSERVED within a population, this is an experimental fact that needs to be accounted for, but I see no justifiable reason for extrapolating beyond those experimentally verified limitations only to 'explain' other facts.  If this observed limitation cannot be 'explained' than I'd much rather be agnostic about the implications.  I certainly understand that in order to extrapolate to exceptions to these observations back into history, I am now in the realm of historical inquiry, not empirical inquiry.  If it goes without saying that empirical inquiry requires methodological naturalism, it certainly doesn't follow that historical inquiry does.

In conclusion, all this leads to just one strand for the reasons why I am a YECcer.  A YEC worldview is perfectly consistent with variation with limits, and it does not require me to explain for the mere sake of explaining.

So, now I'll pause for what I expect will be constructive comments.  :)
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2006, 11:43:08 AM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
You'll not get a mouse with wings


Wouldn't you call a mouse with wings a bat?

There seems to be a reasonabe evolutionary path:

ground dwelling mouse

tree dwelling mouse (squirrel)

squirrel which leaps from tree to tree

squirrel which glides from tree to tree (flying squirrel)

squirrel which flys from tree to tree (bat)
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 12:00:21 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
The idea that we are to allow that observed limits to genetic variation are fortuitously broken by fortuitous mutations that don't kill the progeny outright and happen to occur fortuitously at the same time as some sort of [fill in the blank] selection pressure is so far down sillyness lane, we need to swallow our own skepticism. That's too many fortuitous events all happening nearly simultaneously a trillion trillion times in the last 600 million years for me to tolerate.


If you are seriously interested in the ways new genetic material can be made in  nature, look up "transposons" and "transposable elements".

Basically, transposable elements (TEs) are DNA gene clusters which can copy themselves from point to point within the genome. They have a structure very similar to viruses, only TEs can't leave the cell.

When a TE inserts itself into a gene's regulatory region (their usual target), the gene's function is alterred, mostly for the worse, but sometimes for the better.

Many well documented cases of TEs causing positive changes in gene regulation have been found in both plants and animals including humans. For example, human saliva is capable of breaking down complex carbohydrates due to the action of a TE inserted in the amylase gene.

By the way, many TEs are still active in the human genome. About one in ten newborns have a TE that their parents did not.
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 12:07:46 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
And this calls to attention yet another distinction that can be exploited from my self-distinction of being an 'experimentalist.' There are many aspects of evolutionary theory that simply are NOT conducive to experimental inquiry. The whole notion of the fossil record is clearly a matter of historical inquiry, virtually by definition. I am deeply skeptical of any system that papers over important differences in the types of knowledge claims that are out there with the label 'science.'


So science based on empirical observation is not science?


What gravity experiments did Newton do to conclude that gravity was an inverse-square force?

Was Newton wrong to base his theory of gravity purely on observation of distant celestial bodies?
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 12:19:42 PM »

"There seems to be a reasonabe evolutionary path:"

Reasonable or not, what concerns me more is what is actual.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2006, 12:22:47 PM »

"If you are seriously interested in the ways new genetic material can be made in nature, look up "transposons" and "transposable elements". "

So, you agree that you cannot get from your mouse to your bat without there being new genetic material introduced?

You have misconstrued my arguement if you think that I am not aware that 'new genetic material' can be made.  I specifically said that there are limits on both sides of the equation.  Too big a population, you have relative stasis.  Too small, and you get plenty of 'new genetic material,' alright, and plenty of problems too.  IE, variations within limits.  That is what I said, and that is what is observed.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2006, 12:25:44 PM »

"So science based on empirical observation is not science?"

I'm pretty sure that is not what I said in the passage you quoted.

Your question is difficult to field because it begs the question.  "Science" based on empirical observation is smuggling in your key term.  Something like, 'A methodology based on empirical observation is not science?"  would be more accurate and more logically coherent.  I'm sure that's what you meant.  And in answer to this question as I understand it, there are lots of things that are based on empirical observation.  

Is anything based on empirical observation 'science' ?

I am observing this thread.  If I weren't, I'd be unaware of it.  If I close my eyes and open them again, its still here.  This thread appears to be empirical.  It would seem that my participation in this thread is based on empirical observation.  Do you think I'm engaging in 'science'?  Are you?
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

TheDoctor

  • Administrator
  • Prevalent User
  • *
  • Feedback: +6/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1174
    • Lutheran Educators' Guild
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2006, 01:07:23 PM »

Quote from: Broken
Quote from: sntjohnny
And this calls to attention yet another distinction that can be exploited from my self-distinction of being an 'experimentalist.' There are many aspects of evolutionary theory that simply are NOT conducive to experimental inquiry. The whole notion of the fossil record is clearly a matter of historical inquiry, virtually by definition. I am deeply skeptical of any system that papers over important differences in the types of knowledge claims that are out there with the label 'science.'


So science based on empirical observation is not science?


What gravity experiments did Newton do to conclude that gravity was an inverse-square force?

Was Newton wrong to base his theory of gravity purely on observation of distant celestial bodies?


Technically, yes, based on the theory of relativity.
Logged
Ban time travel NOW
"Okay, kid. Here's where it gets complicated." Amy Pond to Amelia Pond

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 01:53:17 PM »

Quote from: TheDoctor
Quote from: Broken
So science based on empirical observation is not science?

What gravity experiments did Newton do to conclude that gravity was an inverse-square force?

Was Newton wrong to base his theory of gravity purely on observation of distant celestial bodies?


Technically, yes, based on the theory of relativity.


Technically, no, based on the actual question that Broken asked.  He asked if it was wrong to base his theory of gravity (the inverse square law) on observation of distant celestial bodies.  Newton's theory was correct for that time, because it sufficiently explained the data that he observed.  No laboratory experiment was necessary.  

Einstein's theory superseded Newton's, but it did not overturn the inverse square law.  It merely explained better why the inverse square law actually works, because Einstein was able to explain phenemena that Newton could not.

Don't lose sight of the fundamental issue here, Doctor.  Sntjohnny claims that science should not base any claims on mere observation of natural phenomena.  It can only base claims on controlled experimental data.  This is a silly restriction to impose on science, but he insists on it because he thinks that he can then ignore most of the observational data that makes evolution theory such an obvious conclusion.

BTW, Broken, thanks for pointing out that mice can sprout wings from an evolutionary point of view, in a sense.  I would have pointed that out, if it had occurred to me.  I believe that sntjohnny was thinking of the process as a single evolutionary step rather than a long chain of incremental changes that go back to a common ancestor.  Despite all his study of the subject of evolution theory, he has been so anxious to find some way to discredit the theory that he seems not to have thought much about how well it actually holds together.
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2006, 02:08:10 PM »

"I believe that sntjohnny was thinking of the process as a single evolutionary step rather than a long chain of incremental changes that go back to a common ancestor."

You believe wrong.   That would be a macromutation, or the 'hopeful monster.'   I am under no illusions about the state of current evolutionary mythology.  I notice that Broken did not submit to me a detailed account, based on actual observations, of any one of the alleged 'incremental changes' that lead back to this alleged 'common ancestor.'   I notice that you did not, either.

You are asking me only to make a leap of imagination.  You are not holding my feet to any observational fire.   Even Broken only invoked a 'reasonable evolutionary path.'  You may consider such leaps justifiable, but so far you are about as far away as 'empirical observation' as you can get, which according to Broken is the 'basis' for science.

What is the empirical observation?  Variations with limits.  That is what is empirically observed.  Against that you throw 'reasonable evolutionary pathways' and imagined 'long chain of incremental changes.'  

Show that this instance is not merely a reasonable evolutionary pathway, but an ACTUAL series of events.

Show that this is not an imagined 'long chain of incremental changes.'  Demonstrate it.  Empirically, if you don't mind.

I notice that in your haste to embrace Broken's voice, you overlooked his heretical insinuation of Lamarckism.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2006, 02:27:13 PM »

"Don't lose sight of the fundamental issue here, Doctor. Sntjohnny claims that science should not base any claims on mere observation of natural phenomena."

Cop, I"d ask you to represent me accurately.  It should be clear from a great number of comments that I am more than happy to dispense with any 'claims' about 'science.'  You might say that I don't give a rip what 'science' does.  To make my point plain, I coined a word to express my position.  That word was 'experimentalist.'

Whatever nonsense that scientists wish to include under the umbrella of 'science' is not my concern.

Do you understand that, Cop?

Now, as a matter of personal preference- a preference shared by quite a few people, I might add, whether you like it or not- I personally am going to consider only the things that are experimentally verifiable to feign being things that are experimentally verifiable.  

Don't you agree that before we can say that something is experimentally verified it should be experimentally verified?

Things that are experimentally verifiable have a strong expistemological value in my mind, which is not to say that OTHER methods don't also have a strong epistemological value.  In that vein, if evolutionary theory could be substantiated along those lines, I would happily embrace it.  This follows logically from my position that I think you use different epistemological methodologies for different categories of inquiry.

Although, one's BS detector does go off when it is SO VERY IMPORTANT that such distinctions are not permitted for a given area of inquiry.  If the language historically restricted to areas of empirical inquiry are re-cast to cover other types of inquiry, that sends up a big red flag in my mind.  But I don't give a flying rat's buttocks if you wish to play that game.  I do believe I could come up with a "reasonable evolutionary pathway" to get from a mouse to a flying rat's buttocks.  ;)

At anyrate, my position on this issue was quite plain before, and I can think of no other way to make it plainer.

You are not going to win me over to evolution by throwing 'just so' stories at me, no matter how plausible you think they are.

On the other hand, such distinctions will be helpful to keep in mind as you consider this man's argument for YEC.

The ironic thing is that one can be a full-blooded experimentalist the way that I am and the only consequence concerns the types of intellectual positions I will consider.  I cannot dismiss quantum mechanics, because, well, if I do the physicists will create a bomb and blow us to smithereens.  If I dismiss macroevolution, or in some respects, conversely, if I embrace YEC, nothing happens.

Except as a component to a worldview, macroevolution is positively useless.  Being an experimentalist, on the other hand, will lead me to have all sorts of positions that are rooted in my practical affairs.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2006, 02:30:04 PM »

Quote from: Copernicus
Don't lose sight of the fundamental issue here, Doctor.  Sntjohnny claims that science should not base any claims on mere observation of natural phenomena.  It can only base claims on controlled experimental data.  This is a silly restriction to impose on science, but he insists on it because he thinks that he can then ignore most of the observational data that makes evolution theory such an obvious conclusion.


You nailed it, Copericus.

According to SJ, since we can't do "macro-evolution" experiments which create fossils any reasonable amount of time, macro-evolution and it's fossil evidence are dismissed as non-scientific.

Evidently, meteorology, astronomy, and geology do not qualify as sciences for SJ either, since we cannot conduct controlled experiments with hurricanes, stars, or earthquakes.
Quote

BTW, Broken, thanks for pointing out that mice can sprout wings from an evolutionary point of view, in a sense.  I would have pointed that out, if it had occurred to me.  I believe that sntjohnny was thinking of the process as a single evolutionary step rather than a long chain of incremental changes that go back to a common ancestor.  Despite all his study of the subject of evolution theory, he has been so anxious to find some way to discredit the theory that he seems not to have thought much about how well it actually holds together.


Also, the recent ability to study complete genomes has brought to light real evidence of the mechanisms of evolution, something which cannot be determined from fossil records. I mentioned to SJ one such mechanism above: genetic transposable elements. These are worthy of looking into if one is really making an honest effort in evaluating evolution.
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2006, 02:37:57 PM »

"You nailed it, Copericus."

No, I'm afraid he didn't, and neither he nor you really have an excuse not to 'get it.'

"According to SJ, since we can't do "macro-evolution" experiments which create fossils any reasonable amount of time, macro-evolution and it's fossil evidence are dismissed as non-scientific."

As my above statements further clarify (I say 'further clarify,' because I've already said as much in this thread and other places) I don't really care what you call scientific or 'non-scientific.'  I think the term has been bastardized, that's true, but I'm perfectly content to dispense with it altogether.  So, I don't dismiss anything as 'non-scientific.'  

I'm hoping that you simply didn't see my post to Copernicus about these matters, and didn't just ignore it.

"I mentioned to SJ one such mechanism above: genetic transposable elements."

I can provide a mechanism for all sorts of things.  That doesn't mean that the mere existence of a 'mechanism' does anything for us.

You provided a 'reasonable evolutionary pathway,' and by 'reasonable' I presume less incredible than other possibilities, and you are invoking 'mechanisms,' but you are no closer to showing that anything is ACTUAL.

This thread is supposed to be building up to defense for YEC, not hashing over what 'science' is or isn't, or in what ways evolution fits within that word.  Insofar as it is profitable to have the discussion at all in this context, its only to highlight a difference in epistemological POVs.

Does anyone deny that we observe variation with limits?
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2006, 02:44:16 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
"I believe that sntjohnny was thinking of the process as a single evolutionary step rather than a long chain of incremental changes that go back to a common ancestor."

You believe wrong.   That would be a macromutation, or the 'hopeful monster.'   I am under no illusions about the state of current evolutionary mythology.  I notice that Broken did not submit to me a detailed account, based on actual observations, of any one of the alleged 'incremental changes' that lead back to this alleged 'common ancestor.'   I notice that you did not, either.


Sorry SJ, but all of the creatures I mentioned above- mice, squirrels, flying squirrels and bats, do in fact exist. Since you admit that "micro-evolution" can make donkeys from horses or vice versa, perhaps you can explain why microevolution can't make flying squirrels from the standard model?
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2006, 03:14:56 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny


"I mentioned to SJ one such mechanism above: genetic transposable elements."

I can provide a mechanism for all sorts of things.  That doesn't mean that the mere existence of a 'mechanism' does anything for us.

The "mere existence" of observable positive genetic mutations does not do anything for us? For one thing, it blows a giant hole in the idea that there are no positive mutations. For another thing, these data show how such mutations can come about: through the action of genetic parasites called retro-transposons.
Quote

You provided a 'reasonable evolutionary pathway,' and by 'reasonable' I presume less incredible than other possibilities, and you are invoking 'mechanisms,' but you are no closer to showing that anything is ACTUAL.

As I mentioned above, retro-transposons are ACTUAL. They have been found inserted into genes and causing positive outcomes. How much more actual do you want?
Quote

This thread is supposed to be building up to defense for YEC

It looks more like an attack on evolution. By the way, when do we get to the part where the earth is only 6000 years old?
Quote

Does anyone deny that we observe variation with limits?


The only limit we see is time. The more time, the more variation. There are about 500,000 generations between chimpanzees and us.

Imagine if you made a movie where each frame was a single generation of the chimp-to-human sequence. At 30 frames/sec, the movie would be about eleven days long. It would take hours (thousands of generations)  before you could even detect the smallest changes. Is it macro-evolution or micro?
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2006, 03:16:18 PM »

So now we aren't going to talk about rodents?  I was hoping that you could turn mice into bats.  Its not like you aren't aware of any mechanisms to pull off the trick.  What's stopping you?  Ah well, now its the horse and donkey.

If we can go from horse to donkey and vice versa, what have you really shown?  Variation.  And when we have a mule, what do we get?  A sterile creature.  We call that a limit.

I'd say that's consistent with my statement that we observe variations with limits.

I'm having trouble figuring out why no one has specifically answered my question.  Do we or do we not observe variations with limits?

"perhaps you can explain why microevolution can't make flying squirrels from the standard model"

And back to rodents.  Make flying squirrels out of what?  A mouse?  You seem to suggest as much:

Quote
ground dwelling mouse

tree dwelling mouse (squirrel)

squirrel which leaps from tree to tree

squirrel which glides from tree to tree (flying squirrel)

squirrel which flys from tree to tree (bat)


Since you invoked microevolution, and insinuated that 'since' I accept its experimental basis, you are suggesting we can experimentally get from a mouse to a flying squirrel.  Is that right?  Its only microevolution, right?

I have an idea for a way that we can test this.   I'll go out and buy 100 mice.  I will throw them all off a two story building.  The remaining population will be allowed to breed until we get another 100 mice.  Then I'll throw them all off of a two-story building.  Rinse and repeat.  How many generations do you calculate I can expect it to take until we get to our 'flying squirrel'?

Now, I know that you didn't really mean to invoke the experimentally verifiable 'microevolution' to explain what in a previous breath you indignantly protested wasn't in principle experimentally verifiable, and so you might say that it could take a really long time to see any tangible results in a single lifetime.  That's ok!  I'll just keep doing this experiment until I die and then turn it over to the next person.  Just because it will take so long to see results doesn't mean we shouldn't do the experiment.   It just means that if we want to do it, we oughta just get started.

Anyone know how much a 100 mice cost?  I'll get them in June.  Anyone want to go in on it with me?
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2006, 03:30:02 PM »

"For one thing, it blows a giant hole in the idea that there are no positive mutations."

You're failing to grasp the critical point:  just because you can imagine a possibility doesn't mean that the mere fact that you think you can imagine the possibility you've described an actuality.

There are all sorts of phenomena that there are mechanisms for that don't necessarily mean we must conclude that their existence presupposes a specific actuality.

How did a bullet get into a guy's head?  Well, he could have put it there himself, right?  That's a mechanism.  So, naturally, since we have a mechanism, it must be a fact that he committed suicide... yea... I don't think so.

"As I mentioned above, retro-transposons are ACTUAL."

Great.  So why don't you ACTUALLY USE THEM to sequence from a mouse to whatever.

A gun is ACTUAL, too.  So are bullets.  So are heads.  How much more actual do you want?  Obviously, there is only ONE conclusion based on these actualities:  suicide.

"It looks more like an attack on evolution."

I'm not the one continuing to raise evolution, am I?  Go back to the post right before you posted.  It was clearly not an attack on evolution but rather foundational statements for moving ahead.  Thanks for noticing.

I can ignore you, if you like.  Would that make you happier?

""Does anyone deny that we observe variation with limits?""

"The only limit we see is time. The more time, the more variation."

Well, I'm glad I finally got you on the record on it.  I'm not going to belabor the point.  Limits to that variation are observed.  You can deny it if you like.  All you've done here is imply that "Yes, there are limits, but we think we can break through them if we have enough time."

"There are about 500,000 generations between chimpanzees and us."

Begs the question.

"Imagine if you made a movie where each frame was a single generation of the chimp-to-human sequence."

There you go asking me to imagine again.

Begs the question.

I don't suppose you know the actual genome for any of these hundreds of thousands of intermediates?  With our current technology allowing us to create creatures by in vitro fertilization and what not, you should be able to pull it off right?  Why are we quibbling about missing links in the fossil record when you can just create them at will in a test tube?!?!?!?!?

THAT would be compelling, although, as a product of intelligent design, I don't know what you'd really gain.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2006, 05:07:39 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
I have an idea for a way that we can test this.   I'll go out and buy 100 mice.  I will throw them all off a two story building.  The remaining population will be allowed to breed until we get another 100 mice.  Then I'll throw them all off of a two-story building.  Rinse and repeat.  How many generations do you calculate I can expect it to take until we get to our 'flying squirrel'?


As long as we're following sntjohnny's clumsy caricature of the evolutionary process, we might speculate on how angels got their wings.  My guess is that the ones that kept falling out of heaven did not produce viable offspring.  :lol:
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2006, 08:12:58 PM »

Clever boy.  ;)

Unfortunately, you fail to appreciate what is going on.  My comments about throwing mice off of a building have nothing to do with describing 'evolutionary theory.'  Your failure to appreciate this fact is no doubt why you possess nothing more than a caricature understanding of YEC arguments.

If the roles were reversed, I bet I could present and defend evolutionary theory at least as well as evolutionists- indeed, I think I could do it better, whereas I highly doubt you could even summarize a YEC position (certainly not my position) without making YECcers groan the world over.

How does this connect?  The objection I am making has nothing to do with the accepted orthodox neo-darwinian paradigm.  You just think it does, and that's the problem.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
In Defense of Young Earth Creationism
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2006, 06:39:25 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
"For one thing, it blows a giant hole in the idea that there are no positive mutations."

You're failing to grasp the critical point:  just because you can imagine a possibility doesn't mean that the mere fact that you think you can imagine the possibility you've described an actuality.

I'm sorry SJ, but this is hard data, not imagination. Genes have been found with retro-transposons and other transposable elements inserted into them. These mutated genes have new functionality which enhances the survival of the organism. Examples have been found in plants, animals and humans.

This is hard evidence of positive mutations caused by a known natural mechanism.
Quote

There are all sorts of phenomena that there are mechanisms for that don't necessarily mean we must conclude that their existence presupposes a specific actuality.


How do we know transposable elements insert themselves into genes naturally? Because we can see them do it. In the lab. So yes, we are talking about a specific actuality. There is no "presupposing" about it.

In fact, more than 30% of your genome is composed of transposable elements: LINE1 retrotransposons, alu retrotransposons, and viruses being the most common. Some of these TEs are quite active in humans. When eggs and sperm are formed, retrotransposons start hopping about in the egg and sperm genes, inserting themselves in new locations.

Where do retro-transposons come from? Most likely they evolve from viruses, to which they are closely related. Some retro-transposons still have genes for making virus capsules, only these genes are broken, otherwise the retrotransposon would in fact still be a virus.
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
 

More Details