Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Evolutionism and Atheism  (Read 3434 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2006, 06:40:45 PM »

"The experiment does not produce these results when oxygen is present in significant quantities. However, there is strong evidence that the early atmosphere had little or no oxygen, judging from the very low oxidation of the most ancient rocks."

Of course, there is immense evidence that the early atmosphere was aerobic, not anaerobic, isn't there?

Isn't it really more the case that the evidence that it 'was' anaerobic is highlighted and emphasized since it gives hope to the only scenarios that scientists can imagine?

What's driving the view that the early atmosphere had little or no oxygen?  That there is 'low oxidation of the most ancient rocks' or 'how the h*ll are we going to explain this?????'

Anyway, I said to myself that I was not going to post here until I posted somewhere else and I've gone and posted twice now.  :(  Back to lurking.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

Broken

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +2/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 218
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2006, 01:47:11 AM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
"The experiment does not produce these results when oxygen is present in significant quantities. However, there is strong evidence that the early atmosphere had little or no oxygen, judging from the very low oxidation of the most ancient rocks."

Of course, there is immense evidence that the early atmosphere was aerobic, not anaerobic, isn't there?

What evidence? None of the solar planets except Earth have significant oxygen in their atmospheres. The oxygen in the Earth's atmosphere was originally created by photosynthetic bacteria. The oxygen in the atmosphere rose from near zero to roughly it's present level starting about 2.5 billion years ago and leveling off about the time of the Cambrian. During this time, much of the Earth "rusted" from exposure to oxygen. Probably a very good way to identify life on planets orbitting other stars is to look for high levels of oxygen, since such a highly reactive gas is not a stable in the atmosphere unless constantly replenished.
Quote

Isn't it really more the case that the evidence that it 'was' anaerobic is highlighted and emphasized since it gives hope to the only scenarios that scientists can imagine?

SJ, I get the feeling that you believe that scientific data are imagined, rather than measured.
Quote

What's driving the view that the early atmosphere had little or no oxygen?  That there is 'low oxidation of the most ancient rocks' or 'how the h*ll are we going to explain this?????'

It's all a vast conspiracy, isn't it? Secretly, geologists, biologists, nuclear physicists, and astronomers all get together and hatch their next plot to prove Genesis wrong.
Logged
"You can't reason a man out of a position he didn't reason himself into in the first place" - Mark Twain

bevets

  • User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6
    • http://bevets.com/Evolution.htm
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2006, 09:09:16 PM »

Quote from: Broken
Many people speculate on life's origins. Since there is no data from the time before bacteria, and science requires data, it is all just speculation.


Quote from: bevets
What is the data that supports single common ancestor? Could life have begun with 14 common ancestors instead of only 1? How could these different hypotheses be tested?

'Since there is no data from the time before bacteria' and 'science requires data' and 'it is all just speculation', should the Miller Urey experiment be included in science textbooks? Should other theories also be included? What should the criteria for inclusion be?


Quote from: Broken
Since the earliest known life was bacteria, it is reasonable to look for life on other planets which might support bacteria. The Urey-Miller experiments show that simple organics molecule can give rise to amino acids under the right conditions. Another important group of organic reactions, the formose reactions also produce bio-chemicals necessary for life such as ribose sugars.

So, to locate planets around the Sun (or other stars) which might support simple life, one clue might be to look for evidence of formose or Urey-Miller reactions, since these reactions produce biomolecules needed by even the simplest life forms.

However, reactions like the Urey-Miller or the formose are a long ways from setting abiogenesis on a firm footing. They are a necessary but far from sufficient step in establishing if or how abiogenesis might have occured. There is still a big gap between these reactions and the "RNA-World" hypothesized as the predecessor to bacterial life.


You gave a long answer that almost completely ignored my questions. I gather that you would assert that one of the criteria for determining whether a model should be presented is that it will help us find life on other planets. Are there other criteria that should be considered? Is it reasonable to consider that God created life?
Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2006, 12:30:42 PM »

Quote from: bevets to Broken
You gave a long answer that almost completely ignored my questions. I gather that you would assert that one of the criteria for determining whether a model should be presented is that it will help us find life on other planets. Are there other criteria that should be considered? Is it reasonable to consider that God created life?


Bevets, even if God existed, he might have chosen to have his universe generate life spontaneously through abiogenesis.  So abiogenesis per se is not at odds with belief that God was the original creator of the universe or that he planned to create us.  

Perhaps your concern is over whether God could have used some other method to create us--e.g. directly by miracle.  What Broken has argued convincingly is that it is reasonable to believe that life arose through abiogenesis, although the hypothesis is not yet proven from a scientific perspective.  To establish that it is reasonable to believe God used some other method, you need to produce some evidence or coherent argument to that effect.  Of course, imaginary gods can use any means that we imagine them to use.
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

SML

  • Frequent User
  • *
  • Feedback: +1/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2006, 05:42:25 PM »

You know, I haven't had much time in the past month to do any actual fact checking, so I've ended up silent in this area - I want to review things so that I can have a coherent discussion with Broken, who honestly believes him/herself to be presenting evidence of evolution (prior to Broken it has been mainly an argument that dissolves into "We aren't qualified to argue with the majority of scientists...").  

In any case, I have always maintained that creation is not science.  It is an explanation for what we observe and how it came into being.  I think it is the best explanation.  Evolution, likewise, is an explanation for what we observe and how it came into being.  The theory of evolution is historical in nature (as is creation).  It is still true that nothing presented shows direct, observed evidence of anything resembling a major change that brings about a new kind.  The evidence presented is merely an attempt to show how it might have happened.  Every bit of evidence can be interpretted in a number of ways and I see no compelling reason to interpret it from an evolutionary standpoint.  

I haven't time to be thorough right now - I only have time to dump this statement.  I intend to return, though.  I'm a single mom for the moment (husband out of town) and will be for a couple more weeks yet.  Hopefully I will be able to do more than simply follow along reading by then.
Logged
Time is your most valuable resource.  Use it wisely because it cannot be replaced. -author unknown

Cogito

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +3/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 691
Evolutionism and Atheism
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2006, 01:22:42 AM »

Quote from: Maj73
(prior to Broken it has been mainly an argument that dissolves into "We aren't qualified to argue with the majority of scientists...").

This is a mischaracterization of a powerful argument. I think it primarily stems from a misunderstanding of a logical fallacy called the argument from authority.

Not all arguments from authority are fallacies. Some arguments from authority are or should be persuasive. For example, if ten independent cardiologists examine your heart and each of the ten comes up with the same diagnosis, this alone is NOT absolute proof that the diagnosis is correct. It could be mistaken. Same thing goes if one thousand or one million cardiologists independently come to the same conclusion.

That diagnosis can always be mistaken. It could be just a coincidence that medical science gets it right as often as it does. It could be that you've angered Athena and that she is causing the problem with your heart. (It is impossible for anyone, including science, to disprove this possibility.) It could be that you are ill for any one of a number of reasons other than for the reason that medical science says you are ill.

So while the fact that virtually the entire cardiological community agrees with the diagnosis, that in itself is not and cannot be absolute proof that you suffer from the problem that the cardiologists have diagnosed. It is, however, a VERY strong argument that from a medical science viewpoint your heart is ailing for the reason that all those cardiologists believe that it is ailing.

And that, analogically, is what we have here in the case of your argument against evolution. You are saying not simply that evolution is mistaken. You are attempting to make the argument that evolution is mistaken because virtually the entire scientific community has got the science wrong. And that's a very, very shaky premise from which to base an argument against any consensually-accepted scientific theory.

If you reject the truth of evolution then to be consistent you should reject the truth of virtually every other scientific conclusion, as well; otherwise, your argument becomes ad hoc and we should look around for other motives besides your scientific curiosity to explain your advancement of it. The fact that you are a Christian and that you believe the theory of evolution runs counter to your faith nicely does just that.

Thus, it becomes clear that the reason that you oppose evolution is not because of any scientific qualms that you may have (qualms, btw, that are easily allayed by people like Broken or by independent -- but unbiased -- study) but instead because of your theological concerns.
Logged
-- I know that the death penalty is a deterrent because it's the only thing that stops me from killing certain people. --
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up