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Ragnar

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Paradise Lost quote
« on: February 18, 2009, 01:54:47 PM »

Started looking at this and came across this gem:

How wearisome
Eternity so spent in worship paid
To whom we hate! Let us not then pursue,
By force impossible, by leave obtained
Unacceptable, though in Heaven, our state
Of splendid vassalage; but rather seek
Our own good from ourselves, and from our own
Live to ourselves, though in this vast recess,
Free and to none accountable, preferring
Hard liberty before the easy yoke
Of servile pomp.

To me, this is another way of saying better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
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"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
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"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 02:14:35 PM »

On the assumption that both are real, then it would have to be asked whether or not one really could rule in hell.  At least on the Christian view, if you ruled in hell, the extent of your 'rule' would be your own, closed in, shut up, self.  Imagine life if you were the only one who existed with no hope of communicating with any other entity and you begin to get a picture of 'hell.'   As CS Lewis said, "In the end there are only two kinds of people:  ones who say to God thy will be done, and those to whom God says, thy will be done."

Or if heaven and hell are just a metaphor in your statement, I would wonder again if practically speaking you could have a situation where by rejecting 'serving' you could be assured 'rule.'  I see no hope for that.  If for example you said (as many would like to say) "I refuse to offer any service at all to President Obama" it doesn't follow that you get to 'rule' unhindered by the efforts of Obama, or any other governmental entities, or even the local bully. 

In short, as a practical matter, I can't think of any situation where rejecting 'service' means you get to 'rule.'
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Ragnar

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2009, 04:55:01 PM »

On the assumption that both are real, then it would have to be asked whether or not one really could rule in hell.  At least on the Christian view, if you ruled in hell, the extent of your 'rule' would be your own, closed in, shut up, self.  Imagine life if you were the only one who existed with no hope of communicating with any other entity and you begin to get a picture of 'hell.'   As CS Lewis said, "In the end there are only two kinds of people:  ones who say to God thy will be done, and those to whom God says, thy will be done."

That is a very peaceful view of hell, and one which I would welcome if it were true. Sartre said, "Hell is other people." By extension one could postulate that solitude is heaven. I pretty much agree with this in a metaphorical sense.

Or if heaven and hell are just a metaphor in your statement, I would wonder again if practically speaking you could have a situation where by rejecting 'serving' you could be assured 'rule.'  I see no hope for that.  If for example you said (as many would like to say) "I refuse to offer any service at all to President Obama" it doesn't follow that you get to 'rule' unhindered by the efforts of Obama, or any other governmental entities, or even the local bully. 

In short, as a practical matter, I can't think of any situation where rejecting 'service' means you get to 'rule.'

By "rule" I mean ruling one's self, not ruling over others.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

Anthony Horvath

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2009, 05:08:54 PM »

"That is a very peaceful view of hell, and one which I would welcome if it were true."

heh I wonder.

"I pretty much agree with this in a metaphorical sense."

You do?  But not in a practical sense?  I don't get it.   Are you saying you prefer it if there were no other people in the world? 

"By "rule" I mean ruling one's self, not ruling over others."

What makes you think that in heaven- as Christians understand it- means that you don't rule over one's self?   Aren't Christians already on the books as proponents of self-control?
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cimics

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2009, 09:06:17 PM »

Ever watch the original Twilight Zone episode where a criminal dies and thinks he's gone to Heaven because he can have anything he wants (except contact with people he knows).  He gets bored and tells the guy in charge that he is not cut out for Heaven.  "Send me to the other place," he says.  The guy in charge then laughs and says, "What made you think this was Heaven.  This is the other place!"  Cue Rod Serling: "He can have anything he wants, and he'll have to live with it for eternity." Cue Twilight Zone music.
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Ragnar

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2009, 09:37:17 PM »

"That is a very peaceful view of hell, and one which I would welcome if it were true."

heh I wonder.

"I pretty much agree with this in a metaphorical sense."

You do?  But not in a practical sense?  I don't get it.   Are you saying you prefer it if there were no other people in the world? 

"By "rule" I mean ruling one's self, not ruling over others."

What makes you think that in heaven- as Christians understand it- means that you don't rule over one's self?   Aren't Christians already on the books as proponents of self-control?

In a metaphorical sense because I don't believe in heaven or hell. Given a choice between being around people where I don't get to choose who the people are and being by myself, I would choose being by myself every time. I never understood why solitary confinement in prison was considered a punishment. If I was ever in prison I would start fights on purpose just to land in solitary.

In heaven you would have to submit to the will of your god. You would not rule yourself, your god would rule you.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

Ragnar

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »

"As CS Lewis said, 'In the end there are only two kinds of people:  ones who say to God thy will be done, and those to whom God says, thy will be done.'"

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life.  But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."

The first quote flatly contradicts the second quote. The first implies the choice is follow your god or be left alone. The second flatly states follow your god or suffer wrath and anger. Still sounds like a rapist to me.

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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

End Bringer

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2009, 09:54:56 PM »

In heaven you would have to submit to the will of your god. You would not rule yourself, your god would rule you.

Sadly for you that's true for hell as much as heaven. He rules over everyone and everthing and you submit no matter where you are. "Every tongue will confess..." and such. The only thing that changes is whether you accept it with joy or grief.

You only talk tough about total isolation because that's the only factor you consider. You don't take in factors like soul-chilling coldness, the mind-numbing uncomfortability of being in a room where you can't fully stand up or lie down, the torment of simply having nothing but your own thoughts to keep you company and grounded to sanity, the stench of your own hygene, or the constant hunger and thirst of only being provided enough food and water to keep you alive. And still I doubt you can realisticly compare any earthly experience to heaven or hell.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2009, 11:04:52 PM »

I liked what Cimics added here.  I really doubt that you would like being alone, with no human contact, or any contact at all (no animals, nor even bugs).  I'm with EB, I think that is just tough talk.  From what I hear, solitary confinement really wears on you.

"In heaven you would have to submit to the will of your god. You would not rule yourself, your god would rule you."

Hmmmmm.  But what if God's will was that you were happy and content and satisfied?  Do you have any objections to being happy?  By all accounts, this is what Christians believe will happen in heaven, though I don't think anyone really knows how it will go down.

Would it really be such a big deal to discover that you were not 100% autonomous?  Is that fact really enough to make you refuse every good pleasure offered to you?  It seems to me like there is a healthy principle gone very bad here.   Honestly, it just sounds childish.  It would be like my kid refusing pudding and ice cream just because I'm the boss of the house.

I say all this because even now you aren't really 100% autonomous.  There are a million people with authority over you who can have their way with you if they wanted.  Do you consign yourself to being miserable on account of this one fact?

If so, that doesn't sound liberating at all.

""To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life.  But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.""

"The first quote flatly contradicts the second quote."

Does it?  I was thinking of you when I quoted it.  :)

"The first implies the choice is follow your god or be left alone."

Ok, close enough.

"The second flatly states follow your god or suffer wrath and anger. Still sounds like a rapist to me."

But what if the 'wrath and anger' is actually the part where you are being 'left alone'?  You've already conceded that such a thing could exist, that 'being left alone' can follow from 'wrath and anger.'  You admitted it when you said:

"If I was ever in prison I would start fights on purpose just to land in solitary."

So you can already see how punishment can be being 'left alone.'

And just so you know that there is precedent for this line of thinking in the NT Scriptures, consider this passage:

2 Thes. 1:9... "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power..."

See, shut out.  Left alone.  Just what you want; allegedly.

Now, I was thinking of you when I cited the other passage because you clearly see 'following god' or having to 'obey his will' as something that swallows us whole and leaves nothing.  This is nothing like what Christians believe will happen.  Christians believe that the end process is that you will be more 'you' afterwards then you ever were before, and conversely, if you choose separation, you will in fact become less 'you.'  Because you only have any 'you' at all by virtue of your relationship with God.  I understand you don't buy it, I'm just making sure you understand it.  So look at the passage again:

"who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality,"

What?  they seek glory?  they seek honor?  Honor?  And you thought that the end result was being God's door mat for wiping the mud off his feet.  There is a clear place for the self in Christianity.  This passage shows that you can seek 'glory and honor' even.  So I guess it comes down to what kind of 'glory and honor' and whether your selfishness is healthy, or contorted.  There is a godly selfishness.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2009, 11:08:17 PM »

By the way, you should read CS Lewis's "The Great Divorce" in light of this conversation.  It is one of the finest visualizations of this stuff that I know of.
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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2009, 11:51:05 PM »

Here is the Twilight Zone episode Cimics mentioned:

http://www.cbs.com/classics/the_twilight_zone/video/video.php?cid=621774886&pid=_gaGUdDINa9sbahE3nVENSifgdrCRgzV&play=true

(if it doesn't work go to their twilight zone page and find episode "A nice place to visit."
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Re: Paradise Lost quote
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 08:48:33 PM »

I'm impressed that you found it.  I didn't realize they had twilight zone episodes online.
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