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Author Topic: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule  (Read 3025 times)

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Anthony Horvath

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« on: October 20, 2005, 07:50:24 PM »

The last few years I have realized more and more how critical epistemology is.  I should re-phrase that.  I've always known it, I just didn't appreciate how it played into so many conversations.  

For example, a basic epistemological difference between educated Christians and educated skeptics is that a Christian is willing to gather information across a variety of different categories of knowledge- historical, philosophical, scientific, etc, while the skeptic thinks 'science' is the way to go and supercedes them all.  That's a generalization, but true for most of my experiences.

I wanted to start this thread to coin a golden rule that I hope that everyone can agree with in regards to epistemology:

SEGR:  Any alleged fact that serves to undermine the rationality of reason or our confidence in it must be rejected on the grounds that if true, it would undermine the very method used to establish it as an 'alleged' fact.

'Fact' can refer to anything.  It can be a scientific theory, a philosophical argument, whatever.  ANYTHING that would undermine reason itself, or at least, our CONFIDENCE in it must be declared 'dead on arrival.'

(of course by putting that in quotes, I'm belittling it.  ;)  )
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TheAtheistHeratic

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2005, 04:25:34 PM »

philophocal facts are rarely facts. So don't use them.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

Anthony Horvath

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2005, 06:00:18 PM »

You've just stated what you think to be a philosophical fact.  But then you say not to use such facts.  You have violated sntjohnny's golden rule of epistemology.  Well done.  I wasn't soliciting examples, but well done.
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corzine

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2005, 11:19:41 AM »

Didn't Luther say that reason is the devil's whore?
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Anthony Horvath

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2005, 12:17:58 PM »

Yea, but he wasn't speaking in this context.

If he was, then he would be in violation of this rule, and plain common sense.

After all, you need reason to say that reason is the devil's whore, and if 'reason is the devil's whore' is a statement derived from reason it is apparently a satanic conclusion and thus we could not trust it.
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corzine

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2005, 03:05:04 PM »

In what context, then was he speaking?
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Anthony Horvath

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More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2005, 05:36:28 PM »

Primarily the notion that we can be saved or 'find God' based on reason alone.

If you think otherwise, you could provide a fuller passage.

If I'm corrected, and my recollection is wrong, and that's not what he meant, and he really meant reason in general, he is a fool idiot and we should pay no attention to him.
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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 08:09:55 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
For example, a basic epistemological difference between educated Christians and educated skeptics is that a Christian is willing to gather information across a variety of different categories of knowledge- historical, philosophical, scientific, etc, while the skeptic thinks 'science' is the way to go and supercedes them all.  That's a generalization, but true for most of my experiences.
Give one example of where this is true. Personally, I know of no skeptic who believes that historical knowledge, philosophical knowledge, social knowledge, scientific knowledge, etc., is impossible and who hasn't and doesn't utilize different kinds of knowledge.

The epistemic difference between the nontheist and the theist does not lie in the fact that one accepts knowledge in one realm of human inquiry and that the other doesn't. The difference lies almost entirely in the value that the two place on faith or nonevidential belief. Generally, theists believe that faith can result in a form of knowledge (although no theist can demonstrate this) and skeptics do not.



Quote
Any alleged fact that serves to undermine the rationality of reason or our confidence in it must be rejected on the grounds that if true, it would undermine the very method used to establish it as an 'alleged' fact.
True. . . which is why claims for extraordinary events, such as resurrections or walks upon water, supported only by testimony have to be rejected.

As Hume pointed two and half centuries ago, it is ONLY human experience that justifies the use of testimony as justification for claims. To then ignore the vast bulk of human experience -- which is what we do when, on the basis of the testimony of a few people, we believe that an extraordinary event occurred -- is to undermine the only thing that might justify our using testimony as support for a claim that an extraordinary event occurred in the first place. 
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:36:56 AM by Cogito »
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2007, 01:55:12 PM »

"Give one example of where this is true. Personally, I know of no skeptic who believes that historical knowledge,"

How about we'll just give one example, and we'll draw it just from your own post:

"To then ignore the vast bulk of human experience -- which is what we do when, on the basis of the testimony of a few people, we believe that an extraordinary event occurred"

This is clearly a repudiation of historical knowledge.  Anyone can see that for virtually every alleged piece of history, we have only the testimony of a few, and since each moment of time is not repeatable, a singularity if you will, it is proper to view every single moment and event as an extraordinary event.  The only way that you could detect a miracle is against the backdrop of regularity, and the only way you could know that something was 'regular' or 'irregular' is by examining human testimony through the ages.  But you reject out of hand the testimony about the incidents that suit your fancy, and put your 'faith' only in that which you think can be verified by the scientific method, thus illustrating my assertion, in the very post you deny it in. 

 "The difference lies almost entirely in the value that the two place on faith or nonevidential belief."

That is just false.

"Generally, theists believe that faith can result in a form of knowledge (although no theist can demonstrate this) and skeptics do not."

It is not demonstrable only if you use the skeptic's moldy and pathetic caricature understanding of what Christians mean by 'faith,' illustrated by comments like Dawkins's view that we think faith is believing in spite of the evidence.  It is demonstrable when you take the more robust understanding, that posits faith as being relational, speaking in particular to trust.  Trusting a method, for example, the scientific method, is to put faith in it.  Skeptics trust the scientific method, don't they?  For good reason, you'd say.  We trust God.  For good reason, we'd say- Jesus rose from the dead, as promised, so he's likely to be trustworthy in other things.  Being willing to trust is not something I would categorize as a 'form of knowledge' as you phrase it, but it is certainly an appropriate path to some knowledge.

For example, you cannot possibly know what it is like to sit on a chair unless you sit in it, and sitting in it requires a certain amount of faith that it isn't going to *poof* out of existence, or summarily collapse, though both are possible.  So, it is certainly true that there are aspects of the Christian walk that could be best understood, experientially, only after you've stepped out in trust.  But this is no irrational then pointing out that actually doing something is different then understanding it in the abstract, and it certainly is hardly different then how we generally conduct ourselves in every other area of our life, either.
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Tomtheironmongoose

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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 08:39:23 PM »

Yea, but he wasn't speaking in this context.

If he was, then he would be in violation of this rule, and plain common sense.

After all, you need reason to say that reason is the devil's whore, and if 'reason is the devil's whore' is a statement derived from reason it is apparently a satanic conclusion and thus we could not trust it.

Just to point out. At the diet of Worms, Luther said, "Unless I am proven wrong by scripture or by plain reason, I will not recant."
When arguing over Communion with Zwinglians (adherents of Zwingli's theology), he called their position "the granddaughter of that old hag Reason".

Reason helps one understand the word and how to apply it to the world. Reason should not be seen as something that trumps scripture, but augments it.
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PhilC

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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 06:29:54 AM »

Quote
For example, a basic epistemological difference between educated Christians and educated skeptics is that a Christian is willing to gather information across a variety of different categories of knowledge- historical, philosophical, scientific, etc, while the skeptic thinks 'science' is the way to go and supercedes them all.  That's a generalization, but true for most of my experiences.

That's not a generalisation, that is a strawman.

What you don't like is when we have a different point of view about the importance of your perspective on logic, philosophy etc.

If physical evidence is there and that physical evidence contradicts philosophy, which takes precedence?

The physical evidence does.  That is what we are talking about. 
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PhilC

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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 08:39:03 AM »

There is a parable illustrating my point of view in relation to philosophy. It concerns scholars vigorously debating the number of teeth in a horse's mouth. A naive young man suggests that they might resolve the question by looking in the horse's mouth and counting them.  The scholars are horrified at this outrageous suggestion.

The parable is attributed to Bacon and it makes my point very well.  So many people on sites like these reckon that logic, philosophy etc are supreme but the empirical search for data is supreme over all else.

Xeno's paradox is another example of what I mean.  Saying that it was logically impossible for Achilles to catch up with a tortoise is blatantly ridiculous, but it took philosophers centuries to show the common sense point of view is actually the correct one.

I generally reject any argument based on philosophy alone unless there is physical evidence to back it up, because the danger of treating the latest philosophical ideas as True when they could be another Xeno's paradox means they should be treated with caution.

Philosophy has its place, don't get me wrong.  The likes of Duhem, Kuhn and Popper discussing how we can know that science is true or not does have a valid place in examining our assumptions, but on a day to day basis, any scientist can ignore that deliberation when conducting the particular investigation she/he is doing.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: More Epistemology- Sntjohnny's Epistemological Golden Rule
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2010, 01:23:56 PM »

"That's not a generalisation, that is a strawman."

That's a really silly thing to say, Phil.  I said it was my experience, and without you knowing the particulars of my experience, you have absolutely no evidence by which to determine if I have characterized my experience correctly.

For example, it may be a strawman as it applies to you, but then up until this post, this is the first time you and I have interacted that I am aware of.

I think it is pretty ironic that you have inserted a philosophical objection (labeling something a strawman is labeling it a logical fallacy) while attempting to raise up empirical realities as supreme.  Well, my empirical experience was just as I described, and on your own standard it would be foolish for me to dispense with those observations. 

You shot argument in the foot, my friend.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 01:36:35 PM by Anthony Horvath »
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