I find your post rather disgusting.

Yea it was. So was yours.

Of course not, but does that mean that God won't punish that b/f for treating that girl...

Cano, you're way off in left field somewhere.

LoL  LPF.

I found it disgusting that you would insinuate Hellboy likes alcohol just as you find it disgusting I insinuated Jesus is a homosexual.

That's wasn't the point anyhow. Point was your contention that "according to scripture Jesus died for our sins so it's an absolute truth" is no more valid than my contention that according to DC comics a demon fights against evil, so it's an absolute truth. I'm equating your 'scriptures' with a comic book.

If you could demonstrate this 'scripture' book to be the work of a God then my parallel I'm drawing here would not be a valid comparasion. But you can't so it is. In a nut-shell just because something is found within your bible does not an absolute truth make.

On another subject, I have a question for you Tony. From what I gather from your posts, all mankind will be saved, (from what I dunno, but thats another show) including ol' Harry Heretic here, and there exists no 'alternative' place of eternal spiritual residence for the 'lost' souls to go to.
Is this correct?

Joel?  This is all about Joel?  LOL

Heretic asked:

On another subject, I have a question for you Tony. From what I gather from your posts, all mankind will be saved, (from what I dunno, but thats another show) including ol' Harry Heretic here, and there exists no 'alternative' place of eternal spiritual residence for the 'lost' souls to go to.
Is this correct?

That is correct. You will not go to a place of eternal residence for 'lost' souls. No such mythic place exists.

Isn't that nice to know?

I'm not saying there won't be needful discipline but so-called eternal torment just does not exist.
[/quote]

Yes.

Is thast enough of a response? Or do you want me to say again what I said the last time you started this one?


His....Joel

I don't really want to participate in this poll until there is a maybe option added.
As a bit of a Wittgenstein fan, I can't help but say that in absolute topics.

"That is correct. You will not go to a place of eternal residence for 'lost' souls. No such mythic place exists."

Tony, I don't want to get off topic but you don't think there is a Hades? Jesus mentioned 'hell' (Hades and Sheol) more than he mentioned heaven.

Tony's reply:
That is just one more of the many myths propagated by well meaning Christians.
Here are the facts:
Hell 9x in Matt.
3 x in Mark
3 x in Luke
---------------
Hell mentioned 15 times by Christ in the KJV

Heaven was mentioned by Christ
approx. 71 x in Matthew
17 x in Mark
30 x in Luke
18 x in John
___________
Heaven was mentioned 136 times by Christ in the KJV
He mentions Heaven more than 9 times Hell.

There is a place that Jesus calls 'where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth' Matthew 8:12, one of many references.

Tony's reply:
The wheeping and gnashing of teeth is not hell but is just what one will do when they are kicked out of the 1000 year kingdom and kicked out of Israel to live among the nations. Gehenna is IN Israel and in fact is right near Jerusalem. No one will be wheeping nor gnashing their teeth in that "hell" because only the dead bodies of the criminals will be cast in there to be eaten by worms or burnt up by fire (whichever gets to the body first).

Also Matthew 25:41 Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, "Away with you, you cursed ones into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Tony's reply:
That is only for the nations that mistreated Christ's brethren during their time of trouble. And the fire is far from literal. When Israel was held captive by Egypt for over 400 years the Bible says they ere kept in a furnace. Did they get burnt? Now it is the nations' turn to go into the furnace for their treatment of Christ's brethren. It will last for the duration of the 1000 years. No more. No less.

I have the knowledge that you follow Christ, but why do you reject what he says about the reality of such a place for the people who reject God's salvation? Luke 16:19-31

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that. It is a parable. When a person dies the body is not carried by angels to Abraham's bosom.
When the rich man died he was entombed and in hades (which is the grave in the Old Testament!) he lift up his eyes IN THE GRAVE, not in some Dantean hell. Was their literal fire in his tomb? Was he really alive? No, the Bible says much about when a person dies they are unconscious. It is just a parable. Part of the 5 part parable which Christ began in Luke 15:1.
There is no place of eternal torment because there is no word used in either the Old or New testament that even hints of eternity. It is always AIWN and AIWNIOS eon and eonian.

That is correct. You will not go to a place of eternal residence for 'lost' souls. No such mythic place exists.

So it does not matter whether one calls themselves xian, hindu, muslim, atheist or whatever? Does it matter whether one believes that Jesus existed and did the things the bible claims he did?

Heck, if all is well at the end what does it matter what we chose to believe?

Tony's reply:
Having faith now is just a proof that one is chosen to be living in the next two eons/ages. Those whom God has not given faith in this life will not get to live during the next two eons/ages.

A person is not saved because they go to a Christian church or whatever else religion be it Hindu, Muslim or whatever but is saved based upon Christ dying for them. If a person belongs to the Hindu, Muslim or whatever religion but is given grace to be believing in Christ's death for them, then that is proof that they are saved for the coming eons/ages.

That is why it matters if God has given us belief now.

Tony, where's the judgement of Hitler, Stalin all those people who tortured others for power? If there is no 'lake of burning fire' like the bible says there is; there would be no true justice. I really don't know why you saying there is no such place because that's just your false teaching. And the 'parable' in Luke was the only parable in the bible that named names (Abraham/Lazurus). Why did it do that if it didn't happen or it wasn't 'real'? You think Jesus' parables (stories) couldn't happen?

Tony's reply:
The judgment of Hitler, Stalin and all others including you was done when Christ was crucified. Christ was judged for their sins.
Even though Christ was judged for their sins ("behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world" and "He is the covering for our sins, yet not our sins only but the sins of the whole world also"). And yet Stalin and Hitler and many others will have to give an account of their lives before God. Christ did not die to keep them from needful loving correction. But did not Christ say that all sins committed by man will be forgiven them? Why? Because He died for them!

I never said there was no lake of fire. Did I? But one thing for sure is that the lake of fire which is "the second death" is not eternal.
Just because there is a name in a parable does not make it a non-parable. There are parables in the Old Testament with people's names in them. There are some reasons why the PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE. There really is no fire or a stream in a tomb in which the rich man lifted up his eyes. No one is ever carried to a bosom of Abraham. He is dead and unconscious so could not really carry on a conversation with another dead person either.
AND if you are going to take the parable LITERALLY then you must take ALL of it literally and come to the conclusion that a person only goes to Abraham's bosom for receiving the bad things in this life and the only reason the rich man went to your mythological hell is because he received good things in this life. Are you prepared to do that?

Tony wrote before:
'There is no place of eternal torment because there is no word used in either the Old or New testament that even hints of eternity. It is always AIWN and AIWNIOS eon and eonian.'

Cano's reply:
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of 'eternal' fire.


Why do you hold your position against what scripture says?

Tony's reply:
Why do you rely on mistranslated versions? The Greek word behind your mistranslation of 'eternal' is "aionion" and is merely an adjective which tells us what pertains to the aion/eon(s) and not to eternity. Are those cities really suffering in 'eternal' fire? Go over there today and you won't see so much as even any smoke.

Tony wrote before about GEHENNA:
'It will last for the duration of the 1000 years. No more. No less.'

Where is your scriptural support for these comments?

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the 'lake which burneth with fire and brimstone': which is the second death.

If it's not literal, what is it then? And that scripture refers to everyone, not just Israel.

The lake of fire which is the second DEATH is not Gehenna. Gehenna can only be during the 1000 year reign as the Old Testament prophets and common sense dictate. When the earth is destroyed so will Gehenna. The new earth has the lake of fire not Gehenna! Matthew 25:31-46 is neither about Gehenna nor the lake of fire! The judgment of the nations that treated his brethren well or poorly happens right when Christ comes back to set up His kingdom (Matt.25:31). 1000 years later the lake of fire comes (Rev. 20:3 onward and learn something new.  :)