Copernicus - So what is the name of your god?  Is it a person or a concept or philosophy?  Does it or he reduce everything to the rational (absence of the supernatural)?  Does the conscience soul, if you believe in such a thing, continue on after death.   Why or how does this hold your thoughts?   
I was in an accident yesterday - hit broadside, at about 35-40mph - she saw neither me (my Sprinters is hugh - 9ft.H X 16ft. L) or the red light - thrown across the front of my Sprinter by the impact - very sore shoulder - but alive.  The other vehicle was totaled but protected the riders.  Sobering realities of life. 

I do not believe in gods.  Philosophically, I am a naturalist.  That is, I see no justification for belief in a supernatural or "spirit" plane of existence.

So the evolutionary stream of thought is probably comfortable for you.  Taken to it's logical conclusion then you believe that matter and/or energy are eternal and by random events over billions of years we (and possibly more knowledgeable/powerful beings) have arrived (noting no particular thought of advancement) where we are and may develop into more sophisticated beings or less sophisticated beings (if that can be truly judged) as time goes on.  You're too rational to pretend that you don't make the best choices possible (weighing in all the factors) as you and yours travel through life.   Hence you have developed a value system that transcends just the facts - i.e. you wouldn't kill your neighbor for his (chose your machine: Corvette, Hummer, Viper, etc. etc. ) because you felt a desire to look awesome to (pick your favorite person to impress).  Even though that neighbor might be better off dead - they could be older, disabled or many other factors that society is now seriously considering (as did Germany circa 1930's and 1940's) that could relegate someone to the less than worth living category.  Like many things, naturalism has good points and having spent 25 years of my life in environmental instrumentation I do understand the need and the "good" in protecting nature and all things natural.  When the book of Revelation states that we (mankind) have polluted the earth (could well be referring to nuclear fallout, biological and chemical warfare as well as other pollution) I see God's reaction to the ruining of a superbly designed, self regenerative ecosystem that wisely tapped could easily meet our worlds population needs.   I have floated off again!  Your value system is simply not a pure naturalist (survival of the fittest) philosophy.  It has obvious spiritual/religious elements you have incorporated - either for your peace of mind or to get along with others better.  You do care for the numb nob who smacked your car - he/she has value beyond your brief and painful (financially, physically, schedule wise etc. etc.) encounter.  The fact that your emotions can't peacefully co-exist with your rationalized mind on certain matters (like dying/death) are legitimate tensions that Christianity answers - historically (This Evidence Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell - a former athiest turned Christian after trying to disprove historical Christianity), experientially (there is a peace beyond knowing - being born again is (I thinking you've done things in your life you regret and hopefully have been forgiven for - your emotional/soul side really takes over your rational/mind side) hard to describe - what happens - for me it was a peace I'd never known - it started me in a new direction (everything becomes new), and a future that can be known in part (prophecy) and my confidence in my"eternal state of rest".  I'll be the first to admit that the organized church has made a lot about the faith far more complicated, political and hierarchical than I believe it was ever meant to be.  I'll be praying for you - it probably won't be answered  the way I would think - which is a good thing! 

When we die, we cease to exist, just as we did not exist before we were born.  When you lose consciousness, you also more or less cease to exist.  I fear death as greatly as most people do on an emotional level, not a rational level.

I don't know if you have children, but, I can't imagine you telling them that when a loved family member that passes away has simply ceased to exist!  Now I say that to you and at the same
time I was criticized by family for telling my children that there was no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, etc. etc. - the family was sure I was going to damage them for life - even though they knew the truth but thought, because of their age and naivety, my children should be allow to believe a fun and mysterious fable/lie.  By all accounts they don't seemed to have suffered but advanced by believing the truth.  Maybe you do tell others that loved ones have ceased to exist - or cleverly avoid making direct statements, but, wouldn't it be better to tell them the truth (as you see it) than to let them believe a lie?  Why would you fear death if all of life is happenstance anyway - there's no pain/hell to pay or heaven to gain.  I guess like my friend Jim, as long as the positives/pleasures outweigh the negatives/pains (of various types and kinds) you hang in there.  As he has recently gone through the shingles/smallpox
virus and then the flu, he expresses he would rather be dead on any given day - expect he inexplicably won't "pull the trigger" - he somehow senses that his philosophy has some serious holes in it.   I hope some day you will "see" that your rational mind and your emotional/soul can work together in harmony to a magnitude you won't think is possible.

I'm going to skip the Great Wall of Text and state that I support abortion out of sheer practicality, so there.

I also think that any person who thinks that there's no justification for moral behavior without a deity to command it, is an idiot. I base my morals on the practical ideal that a world where people are nice to other people is a world worth living in, a pleasant place and one worth working toward. That's it, that's all, that's the end, thanks for reading and have a fail-free day.

Also note that "being nice to people" does not naturally extend to frowning upon aborted pregnancy just for the sake of frowning upon aborted pregnancy.

So would you be in favor of removing legal restraints imposed by our legal system of my one time coworker who had a consensual sexual relationship with his 10 year old step daughter?

Interesting question. Let me ask a counter-question: how much knowledge and experience of the world did said 10-year-old stepdaughter have for the "consent" part to be considered credible? You do know that in certain contexts (medical, legal, et cetera) matters of consent or lack of consent can be overthrown if the one consenting or refusing to consent is deemed incapable of making the decision, right?

I wouldn't trust a ten-year-old's consent to sexual activity with her father. For all I know, he's a manipulative censored word and she's just an innocent victim of naively going along with it.

Who and why is this wrong - she doesn't and neither did he.  How detestable would I have to get before you'd admit that "it just ain't right!"

Entertainingly, there's almost always a practical reason behind our laws, although imposing legal punishment on an eighteen-year-old who has sex with a seventeen-year-old is kinda silly, in my humblest opinion.

You are obviously a narrow minded, bigoted, legalistic, fun squashing person.  But they put him in prison anyway.   Seems that someone somewhere did some pretty extensive research and found out that young children can be manipulated and deceived

I had a dog, and his name was b - b - b - b - BINGO!

- but that will change.  Those narrow minded researchers just don't know what normal and healthy is.

Researchers are researchers. Not gods. Did I say anything about researchers? No, no I did not. Thus this argument is............. *DING!* completely pointless.

Maybe the LAMBDA folk are right - we're just too up tight?  We're the ones that have actually caused societies downfall by demanding that spouses stay faithful to one another and the children should be protected from those who would use and abuse them - beginning to sound like hate speech.

Emotional and physical repercussions are a whole different ball game than the decrees of an invisible guy with pie in the sky. Why does it seem that with every point you try to make, you support *my* argument?

Hate the sin and love the sinner - that's what Christ taught.

I have a simpler view: People who do bad things, are bad people. I am not going to love Osama bin Laden, I am going to despise him.

Yes they can tolerate and deceive just about anyone but those darn, narrow minded, etc.etc., fundamentalist, Bible believing type Christian.  So why not cooperate and be nice to these misunderstood people and I know they'll be nice to you and your loved ones.  Is there a smiley face with a finger in the throat?

My sentiments exactly.

Wait, are you on my side without realizing it? You did catch the part... where I said... "people who think there's no justification for moral behavior without a deity to command it," right?

... At some point in the near future, you'll have to not only disagree with folk like me but turn us in as enemies of the state and you'll have to show your allegiance to them by taking the mark...

You have an active paranoid imagination.  I have no desire for a government that tries to control religious conscience, and I do not favor using the government to promote my point of view on religion, unlike many of my religious acquaintances.

Quote from: jfoxton on May 06, 2009, 08:08:09 PM

... At some point in the near future, you'll have to not only disagree with folk like me but turn us in as enemies of the state and you'll have to show your allegiance to them by taking the mark...

You have an active paranoid imagination.  I have no desire for a government that tries to control religious conscience, and I do not favor using the government to promote my point of view on religion, unlike many of my religious acquaintances.

An odd comment from one who frequently insists that "religious conscience" (this is kind of redundant) must not enter political issues (thus only allowing your religion), and supports removal of expressing that religious conscience in public places. You sure you don't desire government control to some degree if not all?

Trying to lecture an atheist about the Antichrist is as effective as quoting scripture to one.  Save it for those who have already bought into your belief system.  I have not.

I didn't know that the future was not of interest to you.  It will happen whether you believe it or not.  I'm sure if you try hard enough you can rationalize it all away, or not.

What is it you think you know about Hitler, Stalin, and other historical tyrants that you think I don't know?

Oh, I'd never say you're ignorant, just too comfortable (or some degree of denial) to want to believe that you could find yourself having to deal with a them or me scenario.   Your intellectual prowess is not in question.

Scripture does not inspire me the way it inspires you.  I was hoping that you might have guessed this.

Awe shucks!  Why do you hang around a "Christian" website?  Here I thought I would be chewing the fat about theological issues with the brethren.  So maybe you're here to get a good laugh or to "convert" someone.  Sure makes it interesting.  St. Johnny doesn't let you get away with much though.

Your sweeping generalizations about Muslims and Christians are really without basis.  Most Muslims do not try to convert people at the point of the sword, and many past Christians have tried to do just that.

I see, most Muslims don't but many Christians do.  I'd tend to think that most Muslims and most Christians don't would be more like it.  Of course throughout history there has been exceptions (slaughter of the Huguenots - done by Christians to Christians????).  Especially when the folk at the top have the supposed power to eject from the faith those who resist their unquestioned reasoning and power/position.   Forced conversions (does anyone believe they're actually converted????) are just devilish!  Since Christ is the Christians ultimate example, when did He ever "force" anyone to believe in Him?  Oh, He definitely did rile the self righteous by letting them know where they'd end up if they didn't repent.  I digress!