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Copernicus

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The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« on: January 06, 2009, 03:15:13 PM »

Why I fear religion-based morality

Religion-based morality is usually grounded in the authority of a god, although there can be a more dispersed basis for that authority, as there seems to be in some Eastern religious traditions.  From a Christian perspective, right and wrong conduct is fully determined by God.  Without God's authority to motivate conduct, people can misbehave in any conceivable way without fear of punishment or loss of reward for good behavior.  God figures heavily in their calculation of the best course of action in the future.

When confronted with an atheist, people of religious faith are understandably concerned.  They now face someone whose basis for morality is largely missing.  Such a person would seem to pose a worse threat to society than someone who accepts the existence of a clear moral authority and just chooses to disobey.  The atheist has no guide to correct behavior except, perhaps, an intuitive understanding of what God ordains, and that is just not enough.  The atheist faces no threat from disobedience other than social condemnation.

Now let me explain my perspective on morality as an atheist.  The threat I face for immoral conduct is not just social, but we all face the penalty of social condemnation.  I also face a personal psychological threat that is roughly the same as for the religionist.  Moral rules are more like ethical rules in the sense that they are based on convention and principle.  It is possible that my instinctive feelings of guilt, often based largely on empathy for others, were designed into me by a deity, but I really doubt that.  More likely, they derive from the evolutionary process that created human beings as social animals.  I want others to like me, and that is a powerful check on behavior.  I also feel pressure to conform to social norms, even though I cannot always make sense of them on the basis of empathy or principle (e.g. "Do unto others...")  I recognize instinctively that moral conduct makes me safer because it strengthens the social bonds that I depend on for comfort and survival.  So there is a rational basis for moral behavior.  Even though a god is not going to destroy me for misbehaving, I could lose standing in my community and self-esteem.

Now I will explain my problem with religious morality--why it concerns me that people ground morality in the authority of a deity.  Gods can be capricious.  They do not always have the best interests of humanity as a whole in mind.  For example, some believers believe their deity wants their religious doctrine to be valued above survival and comfort.  Sometimes religious law is harsh and cruel, but it is thought justified on the basis of how the deity feels about the behavior in question.  That disturbs me because I regard gods (and supernaturalism in general) as grounded in pure imagination, not reality.  Whether or not there is any truth to supernaturalism, it seems that people's beliefs about the supernatural can vary arbitrarily.  So the moral grounding of a religious person has an element of arbitrariness that frightens me.  Divine authority trumps all other authority, and it can contravene social welfare in general.

So we come full circle.  I understand why people of religious faith question the basis of my morality and why they consider atheism a threat to social safety.  I also see religion-based morality as a potential threat to human safety, although usually it is the case that people imagine their gods to want the same thing they do--safety and comfort for the human race.

http://naastika.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-i-fear-religion-based-morality.html
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 08:14:31 PM by Copernicus »
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End Bringer

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 03:55:18 PM »

Why I fear religion-based morality

Religion-based morality is usually grounded in the authority of a god, although there can be a more dispersed basis for that authority, as there seems to be in some Eastern religious traditions.  From a Christian perspective, right and wrong conduct is fully determined by God.

A sign that you haven't been listening all this time if ever there was one.

The old "Is "good" what God says it is, or is their a morality above God?" is as old as CS Lewis. And like most challenges has been put to rest a loooong time ago (though atheist's are slow on the up take). The simple fact is that Christian's hold that morality is an inherent part of God's character. Avoiding the dilemna that morality is a result of arbitrary power, and the notion that there is a Law above God.

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When confronted with an atheist, people of religious faith are understandably concerned.  They now face someone whose basis for morality is largely missing.

No, just that the basis of morality lies simply with the atheist's arrogance of being the highest authority, yet equal to every other human being.

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That disturbs me because I regard gods (and supernaturalism in general) as grounded in pure imagination, not reality.

I don't recall you ever being so honest that you subscribe to circular reasoning, before. I guess progress is being made.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 04:04:26 PM by End Bringer »
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David

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 11:00:59 PM »

  They do not always have the best interests of humanity as a whole in mind.  For example, some believers believe their deity wants their religious doctrine to be valued above survival and comfort."

Well, maybe survival and comfort aren't the highest good for humanity, Cop.  You've got to question these presuppositions.
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Copernicus

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 08:26:39 PM »

  They do not always have the best interests of humanity as a whole in mind.  For example, some believers believe their deity wants their religious doctrine to be valued above survival and comfort."

Well, maybe survival and comfort aren't the highest good for humanity, Cop.  You've got to question these presuppositions.

I make those assumptions as a humanist, David.  Morality exists in order to make it possible for human beings to interact safely and comfortably.  Its purpose is to enhance survivability.  Hence, any approach to morality that could threaten survival would be self-defeating.  Religion can be used to undermine morality.
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End Bringer

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 09:33:24 PM »

I make those assumptions as a humanist, David.  Morality exists in order to make it possible for human beings to interact safely and comfortably.  Its purpose is to enhance survivability.  Hence, any approach to morality that could threaten survival would be self-defeating.  Religion can be used to undermine morality.

How naive, given the lack of morality in the rest of nature, yet all other animals seem to be "survivng" just fine without living "safely and comfortably".
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David

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 06:32:24 PM »

  "Morality exists in order to make it possible for human beings to interact safely and comfortably.  Its purpose is to enhance survivability. "

Prove it.
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Zagzagel

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 09:34:15 PM »

I make those assumptions as a humanist, David.  Morality exists in order to make it possible for human beings to interact safely and comfortably.  Its purpose is to enhance survivability.  Hence, any approach to morality that could threaten survival would be self-defeating.  Religion can be used to undermine morality.

This is intersting... the belief, that is.  To grant an assumption/belief that "Morality exists in order to make possible for human beings to ineract safely and confortably" and "It's purpose is to enhance survivability"?   And then comparing this to "Religion"? 

From my study of "Religion" the purpose is to actually enhance the life.  This is more than a survival thing because we all will die.  Religion understands this well enough.  Hmmm...

Me thinking there is a something amiss here... thinking.
 
 
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Copernicus

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 11:42:24 PM »

This is intersting... the belief, that is.  To grant an assumption/belief that "Morality exists in order to make possible for human beings to ineract safely and confortably" and "It's purpose is to enhance survivability"?   And then comparing this to "Religion"?

It seems pretty obvious to me that moral strictures exist solely to govern social interactions, and they almost always play some practical role in society.  For example, being faithful to one's spouse has the effect of providing children with a stable environment in which to grow into adulthood.  Infidelity increases risk to children.  Taboos against incest play the role of reducing the effects of inbreeding.  These strictures aren't necessarily the only way or the best way to produce a healthy society, but they seemed to have evolved over time as winning survival strategies.  Religions are just enforcement mechanisms for such social rules of engagement.

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From my study of "Religion" the purpose is to actually enhance the life.  This is more than a survival thing because we all will die.  Religion understands this well enough.  Hmmm...

Remember that evolution requires death in order to work.  It is about producing copies of mortal beings, not just about prolonging life.  I don't think that religion has a single purpose, but it certainly does play many useful roles in bringing about social stability.  One such role is that of serving as an enforcement mechanism for "right" behavior. 

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Me thinking there is a something amiss here... thinking.

You are always thinking that something is amiss, Zag.  ;)
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Zagzagel

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Why I fear religion-based morality
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 07:53:54 PM »

It seems pretty obvious to me that moral strictures exist solely to govern social interactions, and they almost always play some practical role in society.  For example, being faithful to one's spouse has the effect of providing children with a stable environment in which to grow into adulthood.  Infidelity increases risk to children.  Taboos against incest play the role of reducing the effects of inbreeding.  These strictures aren't necessarily the only way or the best way to produce a healthy society, but they seemed to have evolved over time as winning survival strategies.  Religions are just enforcement mechanisms for such social rules of engagement.

Then in this regard you can accept some religious points about this.  Seems good.  :)

Remember that evolution requires death in order to work.  It is about producing copies of mortal beings, not just about prolonging life.  I don't think that religion has a single purpose, but it certainly does play many useful roles in bringing about social stability.  One such role is that of serving as an enforcement mechanism for "right" behavior.

Ever read writings by Tony Compola? (sp?)  Interesting how the ideas are similar.  And, even, your words are close to what Jesus said... I won't quote those words.  :)

You are always thinking that something is amiss, Zag.  Wink

Not accurate.. but mainly true, sometimes.



 
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Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!
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