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Author Topic: The Shroud of Turin  (Read 5459 times)

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Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2006, 07:25:12 AM »
So are you accepting that not one word was written about Jesus while he was alive?
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2006, 09:43:56 AM »
"So are you accepting that not one word was written about Jesus while he was alive?"

Not at all.  ;)  Before I knock it out of the park I have to get you to commit to pitching the fastball.  ;)

You have no response, otherwise?  'Contemporary' only means 'written while alive'?  That's the hill you want to die on?
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Stathei

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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2006, 04:50:24 PM »
Get on with it, SJ  :smt015 .
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2006, 08:50:43 PM »
So the answer is 'yes, I want to die on this hill.'

I don't understand your reluctance to answer the question and address the point.  However, if you've got nothing to say, I'm going to presume that you accept the strength of my argument that 'contemporary' more than reasonably refers to people with overlapping lifetimes.
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Stathei

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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2006, 10:17:27 PM »
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So the answer is 'yes, I want to die on this hill.'


No the answer is "Please, SJ, if you have an example of a single word written about Jesus while Jesus was alive tell us what it was, otherwise please, please, stop with the pathetic games trying to disguise the fact that there are none."

In other words, please answer the question I asked seven posts ago:

Quote
Sorry, SJ, if I was unclear. Please quote me a single source who recorded a single word about Jesus while Jesus was alive. That is what I mean by contemporary.


I assume this is a forum in which the debate is about Christianity, not semantics, although when challenged on the former you often hide in the latter  :roll:.
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2006, 10:00:09 AM »
Don't get your undies in a bundle.  Its not my fault that I'm the only one around here who cares about the proper use of language.  Anyway, I've been working on it.  I'll get it out when its ready.
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Stathei

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« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2006, 10:57:46 AM »
If he had existed, you wouldn't need to "work on it".
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2006, 11:04:12 AM »
Whatever.  Chill.
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2006, 11:24:20 AM »
FYI, it so happens that this conversation has dovetailed into the series of arguments I was making for the existence of Jesus in the 'history' forum.  This one is 'part 5.'  To kill several birds with one stone, I am crafting it to serve in that position.  In the meantime, if you like, you can peruse parts 1-3 which have been written and are available already.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2006, 11:57:08 AM »
Stat, going back to the beginning of this thread, just out of curiosity which one of the three was it that admitted he had doubts?
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
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"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2006, 01:32:43 PM »
I'm trying to read those history threads now - heavy going  :? .

8d, I'm not sure what you are referring to - please elaborate.
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« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2006, 03:14:43 PM »
Yea, those are deep, deep threads.  

I finished the project.  You can view it here:

http://www.sntjohnny.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1851

More heavy going, I'm afraid.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2006, 10:12:16 AM »
You mentioned one of the three scientists who worked on the 1988 dating of the shroud had doubts about the date.
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

8d82thebone

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« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2006, 11:07:37 AM »
Quote from: Stathei
I'm trying to read those history threads now - heavy going  :? .

8d, I'm not sure what you are referring to - please elaborate.

 
You mentioned at the top that one of the scientists who worked on the 1988 dating had expressed some doubt... do you know which one of the three it was?
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2006, 11:08:10 AM »
Sorry for the misunderstanding, 8d - it was Ray Rogers.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2006, 10:19:48 AM »
Thanks!
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Ragnar

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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2006, 10:13:38 AM »
Does anyone know if the image on the shroud could have been produced through natural means? That is, have any other funeral shrouds been found with body imprints on them, or can this be naturally reproduced, not just through painting or drawing or whatever?

I remember hearing something about how it could have happened through a primitive kind of photographic process. Anyone have any sources about this?
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Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2006, 10:34:32 AM »
If so, it wouldn't look the way it does. As I mentioned before, if you imagine painting your body and wrapping yourself in a sheet, you would expect the resultant image to be distorted - not a perfect face on 2-D image like the painting on the shroud.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2006, 11:31:21 AM »
It would turn out something like those wierd-looking world maps... you know the ones I mean, that look the same way an orange peel looks if you get it to come off in one piece.
 If the shroud were 'rubbed' on a statue of some sort, and left to discolor somehow, when it was taken off and then laid out flat, the image would still be distorted.
 Try taking some silly- putty,wrapping it around the face of a doll, for instance, and then taking it off and folding it out flat (image up of course)
See if the image stays anywhere near realistic, or if it distorts out.
 The image on the shroud, even though it is laid out flat, still has a perfect image of a man, even though it was laid around him.
This is what is meant by the image being more of a 'photographic image' than of a transfer of some kind of medium,(paint or some kind of a dyed fluid)
 The fact that the photographic negative,which was discovered in the late 19th century, shows far more detail than the positive image(the one the eye sees) is very strong evidence for the image not being the work of a 'medieval forger.'
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2006, 09:48:31 PM »
Quote
...very strong evidence for the image not being the work of a 'medieval forger.


Even though a medieval forgerer admitted he forged it?
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