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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« on: March 07, 2006, 10:24:13 AM »

Does anybody share my concern regarding the religious affiliation of the judges of the Supreme Court?

Catholic 5
Jewish 2
Episcopalian 1
Protestant 1

This is hardly representative of our society. Comments?
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Anthony Horvath

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2006, 10:41:11 AM »

Staaaaaaaaaaaaathei.  :)

I don't recall where its written that the SC must be representative of society.  That almost makes it sound as though the constitution would be construed differently if, say, an atheist looked at the words instead of a theist.  Does the intended meaning of a sentence actually change because of the background of the person reading the sentence?

All I want out of a SC justice is an ability to read and the conviction to stick to what is written.  Incidentally, while the ability to read may be pretty common, the sort of people with the most experience sticking to what is written and living by that are people whose religion ascribes authority to a set of documents.  Christian theists are already used to sticking to the text.  That's something we should want our SC to do as well.
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2006, 11:35:10 AM »

ESSSSSSSSSJJJAAAYYYYY!!  [biggrin

Your points intended to allay my fears actually confirm them.

Quote
That almost makes it sound as though the constitution would be construed differently if, say, an atheist looked at the words instead of a theist.


I presume you are being sarcastic, since this is obviously the case.

Quote
Does the intended meaning of a sentence actually change because of the background of the person reading the sentence?


No, but the meaning that is taken by the person will be influenced by their background. Do you really think the Framers of the Constitution intended to protect my right to buy an assault rifle and watch hardcore pornography when they were doing their framing? They didn't intend to, but they did because of the background of the interpreters.

Quote
Christian theists are already used to sticking to the text.


You're kidding, right? The openness of human language to translation and interpretation accounts for the wide variety of Christian faiths and practices.

I hadn't given the religions of the Justices a moment's thought until I read that the majority of them are Catholic. That got me to wondering whether people who believe that they eat the body of Jesus and drink his blood by the magic of transubstantiation should really have so much power to decide the fate of this country. The makeup of the Supreme Court should be something like

Protestant/Episco/etc 5
Catholic 2
Atheist 1
"Other" 1

I know it doesn't say anywhere that it should represent the country, but it certainly doesn't say anywhere that the Supreme Court of the United States should be completely unrepresentative, with the majority religion represented by a single Justice while a religion practiced by 1.5% has two Justices.
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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2006, 11:50:07 AM »

"Your points intended to allay my fears actually confirm them."

I wasn't trying to allay anything.  :)

""That almost makes it sound as though the constitution would be construed differently if, say, an atheist looked at the words instead of a theist.""

"I presume you are being sarcastic, since this is obviously the case."

No, I'm being serious.  I think that's the nature of the problem.  If you can't count on an atheist sticking to the words, than he ought not be a judge.  Before you go apepoop on that, realize I have the same view about theists.  Question is, which one has training submitting to a higher authority?  The theist.

"No, but the meaning that is taken by the person will be influenced by their background."

I can allow that.  But that doesn't mean it should be excused or manipulated.  IMO, the only people who should be on any court are those who stick to the words.

The words, then are decided by the people through their legislators.  Nice check and balance.

"You're kidding, right? The openness of human language to translation and interpretation accounts for the wide variety of Christian faiths and practices."

Sure, but of course such things accounts for a wide variety of a lot of things, not just faith and practice.  Nonetheless, if you can draw from a tradition where people are used to fighting over the meaning of words, that will be helpful as a judge.  And the reason they fought over the meaning of the words is because they intended to actually live by the outcome.  That's a good attitude for a judge.

"I know it doesn't say anywhere that it should represent the country, but it certainly doesn't say anywhere that the Supreme Court of the United States should be completely unrepresentative"

The way to pull that off is by electing a representative that shares your view.   Or, my preference, put it into law as an expression of the will of the people.
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2006, 12:30:20 PM »

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Question is, which one has training submitting to a higher authority? The theist.


Again, my point exactly - what if that higher authority is at odds with the Constitution?
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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2006, 12:47:48 PM »

Ok, that's your point.  I can appreciate the point, and I won't knock it.  However, I am not so certain it is much different than any other alternatives.  If a person believes that there is no 'higher authority' does he have any inclination to submit to any authority at all?  If so, for what reasons?  Is it 'might makes right'?  

If he only answers to himself, ie, if he considers himself the highest authority, will he faithfully do his duty if a conflict arises between his own preferences and the law?

This is why a stern insistence that our judges stick to the words that are written is important.  We've already got judges who stray from the words on the paper for whatever reason that they invent.  That's dangerous in its own right.  Any judge of any background should swear an oath to stick to the words on the paper, and if their religion won't allow that, they ought not swear the oath, or they should resign.
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2006, 01:11:05 PM »

Actually, my original point was not that religious people should not be on the bench, it was that the bench should be reflective of the citizens it represents. Interpretation of the law will vary with the individual and their beliefs (check out the party-line voting over the election of Bush 2000), so their beliefs should reflect the beliefs of the country - I am not looking for an Atheist Supreme Court, cool as that would be  [biggrin .

By the way

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If he only answers to himself, ie, if he considers himself the highest authority


is a GROSS misrepresentation of Atheists - we do not consider ourselves the highest authority as individuals. We consider the human race the highest authority, and a theoretical Supreme Court Atheist Justice would act accordingly.
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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2006, 01:23:18 PM »

"Actually, my original point was not that religious people should not be on the bench, it was that the bench should be reflective of the citizens it represents."

So that WAS your point.  Well, then I stand by what I've already said.

"is a GROSS misrepresentation of Atheists"

Who said I was talking about atheists?  I wasn't.
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2006, 01:49:25 PM »

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Who said I was talking about atheists? I wasn't.


Forgive my stupidity in assuming that those who do not answer to a higher authority are Atheists...
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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2006, 02:02:21 PM »

So you are in fact admitting guilt of the very thing you said was a gross misrepresentation?

I was just giving an example how alternatives aren't necessarily immune from such issues.
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2006, 02:53:45 PM »

I agree (is that a first??)!
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2006, 03:11:26 PM »

I dunno, but its sure to be temporary.  :)  A few months from now you'll find something on my web page or something and retract it.  ;)
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Stathei

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2006, 08:10:50 PM »

I disagree...
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« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2006, 08:20:56 PM »

[horsey
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TheAtheistHeratic

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Religion and the Supreme Court
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2006, 04:15:04 PM »

I'd be more concerned with their political officiations then their religion.  Religion can much less for a christian than any atheist.  I think the supreme court should have the power to stop impeding on americans right to privacy.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
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Both quotes of Steven Weinberg
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