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Harry_is_always_right

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Music. With or without religion?
« on: March 22, 2006, 05:56:37 PM »

This debate started in the Heaven and er... Hades thread so thought it could be continued here.

Is music best inside or outside of religion. I'd say on balance outside, because of all the classics: The Beatles, Early Dylan, Nick Drake, through to modern stuff like Rage Against the Machine, Radiohead, and a lot of British stuff i could name and no one would of heard of but is unlike any of the previous examples.

As I've said I think by far the best music to come out of religion is Reggae, in terms of both originality and feel.

What does everyone else think?
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In religion,
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Hiding the grossness with fair ornament?
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Zagzagel

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2006, 06:22:24 PM »

I say you have your preference and others have theirs.  Music move people in differing ways.  You might agree with that?  

What I question also...is...what about all this other mosh pit, garble (can't understand the words) kinda of songs..or even the songs (without the garble) that influence violent actions?

G.

I am a music lover. [biggrin
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Harry_is_always_right

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2006, 04:56:09 AM »

I think music rarely makes people act violently. I think generally it's just not the sort of thing that tips someone, although i don't deny it could be a contributing factor sometimes. Personally I'm not a pacifist. I used to be until i found out what riot police are like. If music can move people to use their bodies to make a real differnece for others the that's a good thing in my book.

Mosh pits. Heh heh, you can always tell someone who's never been near one. They're really not scary. Usually. You get the odd idiot. But generally there's actually a very mutually supportive atmosphere inside. If someone falls, they're hoisted straight back up again. They're rarely violent and usually have the same outlet that say wrestling with your brother as a kid might have had.
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In religion,
What d@mned error but some sober brow
Will bless it, and approve it with a text,
Hiding the grossness with fair ornament?
-- Shakespeare

Ragnar

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2006, 04:35:38 PM »

Well, if you look into the backgrounds of a lot of the old bluesmen from the early part of the twentieth century, you find out they were deeply religious people. That's what the Blues were all about, people struggling to "be good" instead of drinking whisky and sleeping around. So I think the Blues is the best music with religious influence. And the Blues was a direct influence on basically all modern music.

Overall, though, I think there is much more good secular music than there is religious music. Virtually all of the good rock artists are blatantly secular or even anti-Christian, even though in most cases they were influenced by the Blues. There were also some Blues artists who were against the Christian society they were raised in, such as John Lee Hooker. Then there's that whole deal with the devil myth about Robert Johnson, and indeed, he has several songs about walking with the devil. The rest of his songs are about drinkin' and screwin', and he was an influence on everyone who picked up a guitar since, from Eric Clapton to Keith Richards to Dave Matthews to John Mayer.

Like I said in the other thread, though, good music is good music. No religious musician has ever come close to the guitar virtuosity of Jimmy Page or the poetry of the Doors, both of which are clearly anti-Christian. Although, if you count Santana as religious, he comes close to Page :)

As for mosh pits, I mostly don't like them. One time I lost my glasses in one and another time I lost a sneaker and had to walk home in the snow.
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JustLiz

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2006, 10:42:35 AM »

I didn't see this thread until today!

We went to a Christian music festival last summer.  My kids had a blast in the mosh pit.

For every type of secular music, there is a Christian alternative - with one exception.

My husband used to own a cleaning business.  The worst job he ever had was to clean up after a 19 year old who blew his brains out.  Nasty.  This kid listened to the hard-core rock.  There were posters with satanic symbols all over the apartment and the music he listened to was the devil - f*** your mother - type music.

When he first got there, there was just a funky air in the house - at the risk of being controversial - a spirit.  He prayed, anointed the house with oil, and again at the risk of being controversial - he immediately felt the spirit leave.  After that, he was able to handle the job like any other.  Two of his employees - one a Christian, one not - both were astonished at the change of atmosphere after he prayed.  The unbeliever in particular was profoundly affected.  That night, my husband came home peaceful in spite of the job.

Music does affect people - whether they are aware of it or not.  I'm not aware of too many Christian artists whose lives were cut short or whose careers were ruined by heroin or other drug addictions.  Actually, I'm not aware of any.  They may exist, but I don't know of any.
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

Ragnar

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 01:41:53 PM »

Music does affect people - whether they are aware of it or not. I'm not aware of too many Christian artists whose lives were cut short or whose careers were ruined by heroin or other drug addictions. Actually, I'm not aware of any. They may exist, but I don't know of any.

Interesting point, but the tragedy effect is not limited to music, and this is perhaps a topic for another thread. It does seem that tragedy follows genius, whatever the genre - from Hemingway to Kurt Cobain.

However, I don't know of any secular groups that lined up to drink cyanide, either. Maybe that's an important difference between secular extremists and religious extremists - the secular ones might take themselves out, but the religious ones do their best to take as many suckers down with them as they can. That's why I'll take death metal over Christian rock any day, even though I can't stand death metal as a general rule. People headbanging in a mosh pit I get. But the people in those commercials for Christian rock look like they're in a trance - really creeps me out.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
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JustLiz

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2006, 07:38:15 AM »

Quote
However, I don't know of any secular groups that lined up to drink cyanide, either. Maybe that's an important difference between secular extremists and religious extremists - the secular ones might take themselves out, but the religious ones do their best to take as many suckers down with them as they can. That's why I'll take death metal over Christian rock any day, even though I can't stand death metal as a general rule.

The difference is that in rock circles, drug problems aren't the extremist experience, but the norm.  We haven't had cable for awhile now, but I've seen enough episodes of VH-1's Behind the Music to know that drugs and rock n roll go hand in hand.  Not to mention Joplin, Hendrix, etc. The list of rock stars who HAVEN'T had a drug problem is much shorter than those who have.  The nut-bar cases of mass suicide in modern day Christianity is a very short one.  And, when you factor in all the people who follow in the footsteps of their rock idols to alcoholism and drug abuse, the rock stars are taking as many people out with them as they can as well.  Rock stars have had an important role in making drugs mainstream.
Quote
People headbanging in a mosh pit I get. But the people in those commercials for Christian rock look like they're in a trance - really creeps me out.

I've been in a drug-induced trances more times than I care to admit.  I'll take the love, joy, and peace from a Holy Spirit trance over a drug-induced trance any day!

But, you're right, it is much less creepy to watch Ozzy bite off the head of a bat than it is to see a person full of joy.  :wink:
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Karmageddon: It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."  Romans 12:2

Ragnar

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 12:00:39 PM »

But, you're right, it is much less creepy to watch Ozzy bite off the head of a bat than it is to see a person full of joy.

How many times does the guy have to say he thought it was a fake bat? Leave Ozzy alone :P
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

TheAtheistHeratic

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 03:59:17 PM »

non religious definitely.  Ironically some christian songs make me feel exited to go against christianity.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
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Zagzagel

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2006, 05:18:28 PM »

LOL... I wonder why Anti..haha.

Mosh pits...haha..yeah, I've seen them at a "christian" concert...and it did look violent :?:  

IF they went home feeling more spiritual..the more power to them..lol.

Basically, what I think is wrong with the christian music industry is that it is too much influenced by the nuts of christianity.  Look at Stryper when it released it's "Against the Law" album... I knew right away, upon hearing the music, that this was not done in humility and in the spirit of Christianity... and it was not until several months later that it was know that they 'backslid' during this time.

What ticks me off even more is that "christians" think they should do stupid things just to try and show their "freedom" in Christ... ha!!

Anyways... I'm rambling.. christian music rules!!!!! [biggrin    (I don't know about those mosh pits though..ha)
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Bdean

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2006, 07:16:16 AM »

People seem to be using religious and nonreligious very differently than I choose to...

Practically every great (and not so great) musician/composer/band that I can think of had religious influences and even had an occassionally blatant relgious song.  This is not to say that it was Christian, but  religious nonetheless (meaning that there was a spiritual journey involved, most often one that entailed the pursuit of life/truth/meaning beyond the physical world.  Take my short list of musicians/compsers/bands starting with B as an example  [smile :

Bach, the Beatles, BB King, Byrds, Babyface, Bad Company, Bad Religion, Beach Boys, Barry Manilow, Beatie Boys, Boby Dylan, Beethoven, Beck, Bruce Hornsby, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Billy Idol, Billy Ray, Bjork, Black Crows, Black Sabbath, Black Eyed Peas, Blink 182, Blondie, Blue Oyster Cult, the Bo Deans, Bob Seger, Boston, Boxcar Willie, (Bram) Tchaikovsky... even the Butthole Surfers.   ;-)
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Zagzagel

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2006, 05:01:53 PM »

Good post Bdean.  I don't knock stryper for what they did when they did it with that one release...well, basically, it is my fave.  What ticked me off is the reason they did it...but this eventually led them into a better direction.  And i totally agreed with their view of the controllers of Christians review of christian music who would blackball certian musicians, based on style and lyrical content.  haha..it is laughable how the "christian" industry try to control the content christian music.

Your right though... I like your pov.
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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2006, 04:42:16 PM »

*interesting*
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

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Ragnar

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Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2006, 02:50:08 PM »

Quote from: Bdean
People seem to be using religious and nonreligious very differently than I choose to...

Practically every great (and not so great) musician/composer/band that I can think of had religious influences and even had an occassionally blatant relgious song.  This is not to say that it was Christian, but  religious nonetheless (meaning that there was a spiritual journey involved, most often one that entailed the pursuit of life/truth/meaning beyond the physical world.  Take my short list of musicians/compsers/bands starting with B as an example  [smile :

Bach, the Beatles, BB King, Byrds, Babyface, Bad Company, Bad Religion, Beach Boys, Barry Manilow, Beatie Boys, Boby Dylan, Beethoven, Beck, Bruce Hornsby, Bruce Springsteen, Billy Joel, Billy Idol, Billy Ray, Bjork, Black Crows, Black Sabbath, Black Eyed Peas, Blink 182, Blondie, Blue Oyster Cult, the Bo Deans, Bob Seger, Boston, Boxcar Willie, (Bram) Tchaikovsky... even the Butthole Surfers.   ;-)


I think you are confusing "religious musicians" with "musicians who happen to believe in a god or gods." There is a difference. Also, for some of the groups you listed, there was only one member who was religious at all.

In the Beatles, for instance, George Harrison was deeply spiritual, but I don't think religion was very important to any of the other members. John Lennon was agnostic at the least, if not atheist. BB King was a blues master, which as I said in my last post, was really about trying to reconcile the religion one was taught with the pleasures that one wished to enjoy. Adam Yauch of the Beastie Boys is now a Buddhist, but the Beastie Boys were a bunch of drunken teenagers when they started. Their first hit record, "License to Ill," had nothing whatever to do with religion. Black Sabbath? What are you smoking? ;)  I think it is telling that when Bob Dylan was going through his Christian phase he wrote some of the sorriest excuses for songs ever to be put onto vinyl. I bought "Saved" on vinyl for a dollar about 10 years ago. I got ripped off. To quote Adam Sandler, "Bob Dylan was born a Jew, then he wasn't but now he's back." Thank God he stopped writing about God and got back to the business of writing music ;)

I could go on, but I have to go now.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

Righteous Goy

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Re: Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2007, 08:12:23 AM »

Harry_is_Always_Right said:

Personally I'm not a pacifist. I used to be until i found out what riot police are like.

Interesting comment. And ambigugous. Did the riot police inspire or infuriate you? Were they doing what they needed to in order to RESTORE the peace, or were they beating down the hippies who were having a love-in? Was there a riot BEFORE the riot police showed up, or was it a case of, "If all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail"?
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AQueryan

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Re: Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2007, 04:03:27 PM »

I realize this thread's been left for dead, but rather than possibly start a new one unnecessarily I'll see if I can resurrect it. :D

I personally feel that spiritually-themed popular music is most effective when the lyrics are not blatantly, overtly religious.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Music. With or without religion?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2007, 07:20:00 AM »

lol yea, quite dead.  Welcome back, AQ.
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