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Bdean

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« on: May 14, 2006, 10:50:36 AM »

There is a thread about gentile ideas and the notion of replacement theology.  But, I am interested in an area wher I can learn, in detail, a fully Jewish understanding of the Jewish Messiah.  I would very much like to hear from the different "Jewish" perspectives on the board, as they sometimes seem to be representing what appear like completely different religions.
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shalom

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Re: Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2006, 06:11:58 PM »

Quote from: Bdean
There is a thread about gentile ideas and the notion of replacement theology.  But, I am interested in an area wher I can learn, in detail, a fully Jewish understanding of the Jewish Messiah.  I would very much like to hear from the different "Jewish" perspectives on the board, as they sometimes seem to be representing what appear like completely different religions.


You will find "Jewish" opinion ranges from Messiah being an individual, to an age of peace that everyone (Jew and Gentile) participates in bringing about.  And I don't know if someone who has accepted the Christian idea of Messiah would ever find comfort, much less be satisfied with our idea of our Messiah.  But I'll share what I consider to be the fundamentals about Messiah, then see where this thread leads.

Lets start by understanding what Messiah (Moshiach) means to the Jew.  Saul was Moshiah, so was David, so was Cyrus for that matter.  Moshiach does not carry with it the notion of 'savior'. The word simlpy means someone is annointed for service.  Over time it focused on Kingly service, and  there is the expectation that one will be annointed, who will excel above all others.

Our view of our Messiah must be in context with the vew we have of ourselves.  Jews have this idea that G-d called us for a special purpose;  that we will bless all humanity.  How that has played out over history, and how it will play out in the future - is still a mystery even to us.  All we know for sure is that G-d asked us to follow Torah, and by that, the world would be blessed. We have suffered as a people, sometimes not knowing why.  I personally believe that is all part of the plan.  And like other Jews, I am reminded that G-d promised to bring us back as a people. He also promised us that the line of David would produce a ruler  who would help facilitate our peace.  And if Israel is at peace - the world will be at peace.  

The world will look to Zion as the center of G-d's presence in the earth.  Israel's purpose will finally be understood in its fullest, and all humanity will have full knowledge of G-d, so that no one need teach anyone about G-d.  We will all know and we will all agree.

Our Hebrew Scriptures say more about what life will be like during the Messianic Age than it does about the man himself.  That is why perhaps (my opinion) some Jews talk about the Messianic Age rather than the Messiah.   In other words, the mission is greater than the man.

If you have any specific questions, I'll do my best to answer.

Shalom
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Bdean

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2006, 07:36:04 PM »

Thank you very much for starting this out Shalom.  I really do hope that other Jewish perspectives are added to yours, as I am also interested in learning how Jews differ on this subject.  

Your initial post on the thread is very consistent with the responses that I have received from Jewish friends or acquaintances over the years.  In addition, it is pretty much identical to what I have been taught about the beliefs of Jews in the various texts and courses on world religions that I have encountered over the years.

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Over time it focused on Kingly service, and there is the expectation that one will be anointed, who will excel above all others.


Are there certain passages in Torah that are near universally accepted by Jews as descriptive of this one "who will excel above all others"?

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Jews have this idea that G-d called us for a special purpose; that we will bless all humanity.


This type of worldview certainly serves to partially explain things like the enormous number of Nobel prize winners, leading names in psychology (over 40% of the leading cognitivists, for example), and a variety of other fields who are Jews.  Being an educational theorist myself, I suspect that well over half of the scholars who have most impacted my ideas about education have been Jews.  

Of course, there are other groups of individuals who believe that they have a similar purpose/calling, but I don't know if any other groups of individuals (proportionally) have come close to having the widespread ideological impact as Jewish scholars and leaders.  It seems pretty impossible to explain away this impact as mere coincidence.  Do some Jews see this widespread ideological influence as a way in which God is using the Jews to bring about a messianic age?
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shalom

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2006, 08:27:40 PM »

Quote from: Bdean
Thank you very much for starting this out Shalom.  I really do hope that other Jewish perspectives are added to yours, as I am also interested in learning how Jews differ on this subject.  



I believe I'm the only one representing the Jewish community here.

Quote

Are there certain passages in Torah that are near universally accepted by Jews as descriptive of this one "who will excel above all others"?


Speaking again of the age as much as the man, the one scripture that comes to mind is Isaiah Chapter 2, in which it is said the nations will look to Jerusalem for the knowledge of G-d.  They will also beat their swords in to plowshears.  That didn't happen during the reign of Saul, David nor Solomon, but Jews hold this will happen when Moshiach rules.

Quote

This type of worldview certainly serves to partially explain things like the enormous number of Nobel prize winners, leading names in psychology (over 40% of the leading cognitivists, for example), and a variety of other fields who are Jews.  Being an educational theorist myself, I suspect that well over half of the scholars who have most impacted my ideas about education have been Jews.  


I'd like to put the numbers into perspective.  Judiasm teaches it is man's responsibility to improve the world.  With that mentality and strong community support for such actions, I'm not surprized to see a Jewish name in the public eye for achievements especially in the humanities, life-science and social-justice.  

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Do some Jews see this widespread ideological influence as a way in which God is using the Jews to bring about a messianic age?
 

I've never heard that idea expressed. Nor do I think Jews are motivated to help improve society for any other reason than that is the right thing to do. As I said before, Judaism teaches that we (you and me) are responsible for improving the world.  Some Orthodox Jews have said that if on one Sabbath each and every Jew observed the day properly, Moshiach would come.  I think the purpose of that statement is to say Moshiach has not yet come - because we are not ready for him.  

Here's a saying that may help summarize what I'm trying to express:


"Trust that G-d is in control of everything, and He has intrusted everything to you."

Shalom
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Bdean

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2006, 09:28:30 PM »

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I believe I'm the only one representing the Jewish community here.


Sorry.  From the other posts, I thought that nojc4me was Jewish also, and I figured that there must be a couple of other Jewish members.

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I've never heard that idea expressed. Nor do I think Jews are motivated to help improve society for any other reason than that is the right thing to do.


Ok.  So, the primary motivation may not be some intentional bringing about of a messianic age.  But, as a Jew, have you ever wondered if all of the significant Jewish influence across dozens of disciplines and fields might not be, in part, the means by which God is bringing about His plans; including the eventual messianic age?  

Jung, for example, despite his being a Jew, did not always speak of Judaism fondly.  At the same time, some more recent reviews of his work suggest that he was, in many ways and perhaps unknowingly, very much Kabbalist in his ideas.  Is there anything in the Jewish tradition that might suggest that a Jew like Jung was unknowingly contributing to God's plans...even His culminating future plans?

A rock that is dropped in a pond causes ripples, even if it is mindless of the impact that it is making :)
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Deep Thought

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2006, 04:47:33 AM »

Quote from: Bdean
Sorry.  From the other posts, I thought that nojc4me was Jewish also, and I figured that there must be a couple of other Jewish members.


Nojc is Noachide, a Gentile follower of the Orthodox Jewish Tradition's Noachide Laws (the covenant supposedly forged between Noah and God--ask nojc or Shalom for details, if you want 'em).
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shalom

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2006, 05:59:12 AM »

Quote from: Bdean
Quote
Sorry.  From the other posts, I thought that nojc4me was Jewish also, and I figured that there must be a couple of other Jewish members.


Not that I'm aware.  That said, there may be Christians here who were born Jewish, but assimiliated.  I consider them 'Christian' in the context of this discussion.  Actually, I've never met a Jew who was Orthodox and assimiliated - I"m sure there many around.  Most assimiliated Jews that I know, came from very secular Jewish homes, and knew less about Judaism than a well read Christian who wanted to learn about Judaism.  I'm digressing.

Quote
Ok.  So, the primary motivation may not be some intentional bringing about of a messianic age.  But, as a Jew, have you ever wondered if all of the significant Jewish influence across dozens of disciplines and fields might not be, in part, the means by which God is bringing about His plans; including the eventual messianic age?  


If anyone improves creation in any way, they are fulfilling the mission G-d gave to all mankind. Call it "tilling the soil in the garden" if you will.    So, I suppose what you say is true, and so are all other great accomplishments brought about by Gentiles. Even those acts that are only known to the receipient of the kindness, or enlightenment in a private moment.

Shalom

PS:  My favorite Jewish author is Abrham Joshua Heschel.  His coined phrase "Radical Amazement" is at times, the best answer I can come up with when I ponder the mysteries facing us all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Joshua_Heschel
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nojc4me

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2006, 11:30:25 AM »

shalom is right. The focus in Judaism in more on the messianic era than on the messiah himself. Whole chapters were dedicated to the messianic era, but clues to the person who is the messiah have to be searched out and compiled from relatively few passages - or even verses.
But some research into the man/men who will be moshiakh has been done.
One website produced the information this way:

Position: Jewish Messiah

Job Description:
                           To usher in the messianic era, as foretold in the Hebrew Bible, and to preside over the people of Israel as their king, sitting on the throne of King David.

Job Requirements:
                           To execute and successfully complete the messianic agenda, as described in the Hebrew Bible, within one lifetime.

Prior Job Experience:
                           None

Qualifications for the Job:
                           The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not be limited to, the following:

                           1.      Be the seed (a direct descendant) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., II Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24)
                           2.      Be a spiritual and military/political leader (e.g., Is 2:3, 11:2; Dan 7:14)
                           3.      Be married and have children during his term (e.g., Ezek 46:16-17)

Performance Appraisal Criteria:
                           The successful candidate will be expected to bring about certain conditions as part of his sovereignty, though some will commence prior to his being identified as Messiah.
These must include, but not be limited to, the following:

                           1.      Arrival of Elijah the Prophet (e.g., Mal 3:23-24 [4:5-6 in Christian Bibles])
                           2.      Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28, [also Ezekiel Chapters 40-48]; Is 33:20)
                           3.      In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel (e.g., Is 11:12, 43:5-6; Jer 16:15, 23:3; Ezek 37:21-22; Zech 10:6-10)
                           4.      Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Is 11:13; Ezek 37:16-22)
                           5.      World peace (e.g., Is 2:4, 11:6-8, Micah 4:3-4)
                           6.      Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Is 11:9; Jer 31:33 [34 in Christian Bibles]; Zech 14:9)
                           7.      Resurrection of the dead (e.g., Is 26:19; Dan 12:2; Ezek 37:12-13)

Source: Messiah Truth http://www.messiahtruth.com/wanted.html

Also, please note the description of the messianic era, even when dealing with the messiah himself!
Also please be aware that "messiah" is the title of a job, not a person's name. So there could (and probably will be CYLOR) more than one. The Temple will need a High Priest, for example, and he must be descended from Levi, whereas the messiah King will necessarily be from Judah.
So there is a view that a messiah will arise from the family of Joseph.
I quote:

Let me summarize what appears in the Rabbinic writings and then give the sources (for those who know enough Hebrew to look them up). There will be a period of about seven years of terrible famines and other troubles. The land of Israel will at that time be under non-Jewish control, and a leader of the tribe of Ephraim (the Zohar Chadash says specifically a descendant of Yeravoam Ben Navat), will arise to lead militarily against these nations who control Jerusalem. He will be successful, but after his initial victory he will die in battle. This will cause a great mourning and many will lose faith. At that time (still within the seven years) the Meshiah Ben David will be revealed, and he shall finish the battle. After which, he will resurrect all the dead, starting with the Meshiah Ben Yosef.. Both of them will go up to Mount Zion to fulfill the prophecy in Ovadiah verse 21: "And the saviors (plural - both Messiahs) shall go up onto Mount Tzion and judge Mount Esav, and the kingdom will be for Hashem." From this we see clearly that the time when the Meshiach ben Yosef comes ends with a period of peace. There is the fulfillment of ALL the major prophecies, like an end to war and a world at peace with the Jewish people in a restored Jerusalem with the third Temple. The Rabbinic sources are: Pesikta Zetrusa (parshas Balak); Midrashim on Mashiach from the Otzar HaMidrashim (OH) pages 390-395; Sefer Zerubabal OH page 160; Rabbenu Saadia Goan in Emunah VaDeos book 8 from chapter 5; Responsa from Rabbenu Hai Goan OH page 387. There are other references in the Talmud and the Zohar, but in these places that I cited they bring together all the points in one place.

I hope this helps.
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"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

shalom

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Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2006, 11:39:18 AM »

[quote="nojc4me]
Qualifications for the Job:
The successful candidate will have attributes that must include, but not be limited to, the following:

                           1.      Be the seed (a direct descendant) of King David, through King Solomon (e.g., II Sam 7:12-16; Is 11:1; Jer 23:5, 30:9, 33:15; Ezek 34:23-24, 37:24)

..................
                           [/quote]

I wanted to clarify that descendant must be on the Father's side - not the Mother's side.  If a man is born of a woman who is a descendant of David through Solomon, but his father is not, he does not fit the bill.  Likewise, adoption does not impart the same rights that birth would.  For example a Levite who adopts a boy who was not born a Levite, does not pass the levitical charge to the son.  Adoption only grants admission to the tribe - not the responsibilities that come from being directly born into the tribe.

Shalom
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Righteous Goy

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Re: Jews and the Jewish Messiah
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2009, 08:16:46 AM »

I wanted to clarify that descendant must be on the Father's side - not the Mother's side.

"There shall not want a man to sit upon the Throne of David." Jeremiah 33:17, emphasis added.
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