Topic: You don't believe in God. (Read 15201 times)

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #40 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:47:13 AM »

Yea, good job Cimics! Come on Harry, all you got to do is look at what I'm saying instead of pscyhoanalyzing things behind my words.

I'm not saying that all atheists SHOULD rape and pillage. I am saying that you cannot condemn me if as an atheist I personally decide to go that route.

Now, in order for me to become an atheist, one thing that I would have to do is find a way to dismiss my intuition that there is an objective morality. So, if I've come that far, I personally would see raping and pillaging as a viable activity.

The difference between you and me is that we both intuitively recognize that raping and pillaging is WRONG but I infer significance to that intuition- an entirely rational thing to do, and I'd argue, a rationally necessary thing to do- while you do not.

We have yet another example of you wanting your cake and wanting to eat it to. You want people to ACT as though there were an objective morality but you want the freedoms you perceive you have if you have a relative morality.

My position is that freedom only applies to the individual, and your embracing that position allows me, as an individual, to act on my own perception of morality. You can oppose me on pragmatic grounds such as self-preservation, but you won't be able to oppose me on moral grounds, since, in your view, there is no 'grounds.'

Stathei · « **Reply #41 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:50:52 AM »

SJ, I look forward to Geegee's response - I hope he can address my ignorance in a less patronizing fashion than you

.

You say I have the opportunity to ask a straight question, but I know that the answer will be far from straight. Here is the question - will I go to hell for being an unbeliever, even if that is my only sin? I asked this question before on this very forum, but was frustrated by the lack of a straight answer, despite the Bible making it very clear that I, my fellow atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddists will all be tortured in the fiery inferno for evermore! Since this concept is too ridiculous even for Christians, they generally dodge the issue or patronize me into passivity...

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #42 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:55:11 AM »

I should add that raping and pillaging has another advantage, in my view. If I can really take over the world (Harry, you be 'Pinky' I'll be the 'Brain'

) then my pleasures are assured, right? The 'social contract' smacks too much of panzy compromise to me. However, it is still certain that some will oppose me. If they are successful, more power to them! Given that I have already rejected my intuitions, I will also at that point prefer to die furthering my pleasures than cowering behind some sort of artifice. After all, if all I have to live for is myself, and my self is being denied to me, I may as well just die already. :) Consider it my last act of altruism as a conquering madman: Dead, I wouldn't be wasting any of the resources needed by people with a larger sense of purpose. :)

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #43 on:** September 26, 2005, 09:07:23 AM »

"SJ, I look forward to Geegee's response - I hope he can address my ignorance in a less patronizing fashion than you"

heh seriously, it wasn't patronizing. You just read it that way. You have stepped into a running forum battle, and I think its funny. See Cimic's comment to you on the point.

"will I go to hell for being an unbeliever, even if that is my only sin?"

I understand you want a straight answer, but you've got to ask the question in words I understand. In this example you have the words 'hell' 'unbeliever' and 'sin' and I am not certain that you understand these terms in the same way that I do (or even most Christians, for that matter).

For example, 'hell' is a muddled concept altogether. Please see the forum rule on 'hell' in the Christianity forum.

'unbeliever' is probably pretty straight forward. I assume you mean not a believer in the God of Christianity in particular.

'sin' however can be understood in many ways. I am certain that I see the word in a much broader context than you do. But this is not certain. Can you elaborate?

With these clarifications I will give you the straight answer according to what YOU mean by the question, and then I will give you the straight answer to the question put more precisely according to what I mean by the question.

Stathei · « **Reply #44 on:** September 26, 2005, 09:42:18 AM »

I ask a straight question, and this is what I get:

"I understand you want a straight answer, but you've got to ask the question in words I understand. In this example you have the words 'hell' 'unbeliever' and 'sin' and I am not certain that you understand these terms in the same way that I do (or even most Christians, for that matter).
For example, 'hell' is a muddled concept altogether. Please see the forum rule on 'hell' in the Christianity forum.
'unbeliever' is probably pretty straight forward. I assume you mean not a believer in the God of Christianity in particular.
'sin' however can be understood in many ways. I am certain that I see the word in a much broader context than you do. But this is not certain. Can you elaborate?
With these clarifications I will give you the straight answer according to what YOU mean by the question, and then I will give you the straight answer to the question put more precisely according to what I mean by the question"

Are you Bill Clinton in disguise? This is the best reply to a straight question since "That depends on what the meaning of "is" is"

!

I can't clarify these terms because "hell" and "sin" do not exist for me, so it is self evident that I am asking for the Christian viewpoint on these things.

Ragnar · « **Reply #45 on:** September 26, 2005, 01:32:05 PM »

Quote from: Stathei

I ask a straight question, and this is what I get:

Johnny's response.

Are you Bill Clinton in disguise? This is the best reply to a straight question since "That depends on what the meaning of "is" is" !

I can't clarify these terms because "hell" and "sin" do not exist for me, so it is self evident that I am asking for the Christian viewpoint on these things.

At the risk of being a Me Too

Good answer. Nice to see another person with some common sense on this forum.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #46 on:** September 26, 2005, 01:36:03 PM »

Don't be silly. I want to give you a straight answer, but first I need a straight question.

I can tell from your understanding of Christianity thus far exhibited that you are not likely to understand my answer as I intend it. You will associate my words, which mean something other than you presume, with your own preconceptions about those words.

If you want to go the cop-out route and say that you can't possibly clarify what these words mean as you understand them because you don't believe in them, then that surely means your question reduces to nonsense. If you can't say what you mean by the words because you are not a Christian you may as well be meaning "Why do dogs eat their own poop?" and I wouldn't know the difference.

From my point of view, this is a pretty pickle I am in. In order to answer your 'straight' question as posed, I will have to modify it quite a bit in order to make sure that it is not a nonsense question, and in doing so you will no doubt cry FOUL. When I give you the opportunity to clarify your question so that I don't have to worry about THAT, you cry FOUL.

This is exactly the sort of situation you put us in when asking about our belief in a 'perverse entrance exam' or whatever it was you actually said.

To answer the question, "When did you stop beating your wife" is to assume in your answer that you actually did at one time beat your wife. But that's a 'straight question' isn't it? You threaten to do this same thing with your 'straight question.'

In a nutshell, if you want me to modify the question so that it really reflects the Christian point of view, I am more than happy to do so, but then I don't want you whining about me changing the question. Or, we can do as I originally proposed- you lay out with more clarity what you mean by the various terms in the question ('hell' and 'sin' in particular) so that I can answer THAT and then provide the other point of view of how Christians would both ask and answer the question intelligently.

Its your call, but let the whining end!

Ragnar · « **Reply #47 on:** September 26, 2005, 01:42:26 PM »

Quote:
??? Uhhh.... I do try to have sex with every woman I find attractive. I don't rape them though. If they tell me "No" then that means "No". My morality prevents me from violating their choice.

I can accept that rape would be no fun for you; that your enjoyment would require a willing partner. But that's just a matter of preference. For you to say it's a moral choice is to allude to an objective morality. And that's to your credit. But what that means is that you really are abiding by an objective morality in making that choice.

I just wanted to point out, again, that you can have an objective morality without deities. I think I disagree with Heretic on this point, but that's OK. I believe happiness is the basis of morality. A rapist is not truly happy, so he is not moral.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #48 on:** September 26, 2005, 01:54:05 PM »

I disagree. I believe that atheism is inconsistent with an objective morality. It doesn't necessarily require invoking 'deities' (in fact, 'deities' reduces to nothing more than more relativism, imo), but it does require going beyond the natural order. An 'objective morality' is something that is super-imposed on top of the world we experience, as such, it can't belong to the world we experience. You can go the route of buddhism, or hinduism, or theism, or perhaps some combination, but eventually positing an objective morality means ascribing reality to something that cannot be empirically detected. Any attempt to render anything 'objective,' not just morality, leads in the direction of religion. I believe it leads to monotheism, in particular.

Also, you don't know that a rapist is not truly happy. That's your 'spin.' YOU would not be truly happy. What gives you the right to make yourself the norm?

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #49 on:** September 26, 2005, 02:51:08 PM »

norm? lol

Zagzagel · « **Reply #50 on:** September 26, 2005, 04:03:31 PM »

Strat. You don't mind me calling you friend, do you? :D

Quote

Surely, at its core, Christian belief is centered on life as an entrance exam for heaven. I'm quite sure no Christian would ever say they believed that, but they are supposed to, which is my point I guess...

Then you continue to misunderstand/misinterpret Christianity. I have never heard any christian say, nor have I met one that believes, that the "core" of "Christian belief is centered on life as an entrance exam for heaven". And why are they "supposed" to believe that if this is not what Christians believe? Now, if this is your personal take on how you see things, then fine. But understand too the differences between how you apply your interpretation to what you think the "core" of Christianity is, and what/how Christians actually believe.

Having said that, I do want to address the idea that you are giving. What you are speaking of is your interpretation of what the "core" of Christianity is and your expectancy of that Christian belief system. So IF a Christian truly believes in a "hell", then a constant evangelizing should be the norm? IF a Christian truly believes in Jesus, then there should be a likeness/pattern of Jesus in speech and behaviour? IF this, then that? etc. Harry uses the words "100% obsessive devotion". Would you agree with him? In some ways I do agree with him, but I don't agree with how he paints that obsession. (You will eventually see how I will paint a different picture)

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Thank you for referring to me as "friend", Geegee, but since you must believe that I am failing the test and will be tortured for all time by some evil dudes with horns and hooves we'd better not get too close

After our discussions, me afraid that you will see me as that evil dude with the horns and hooves - ha, just kidding

No. I do not believe that you will be tortured for all time. I do not believe in an endless, everlasting, forever and ever, eternal place of unrest and torture for anyone. And that would include you Stathei. (And you too Heretic

)

And concerning your "failing the test". I wouldn't worry about that too much since Christians believe in the grace of God. Most Christians that I know believe that we all miss the mark. Thus the need for God's grace. Paul in one of his epistles puts it this way, "NOT of WORKS, lest anyone should boast". So the bookends for our Christian faith is Jesus. Jesus IS the "core" of Christianity. Christianity is built on a relationship. There is more to it than the "thou shall not" or "ought to" mentality.

But what if your "failing the test" has to do with you having no faith in God or Jesus? Now that is different. What do you want first? The bad news or the much more badder news? Sorry no good news here for you.

Well first, you would be put into the abyss, the place of utter darkness and tortured for some time, then you the scary part comes...you get hurled into a lake that burns with fire and you will be sizzling forever and ever with no end...and yes, you will certianly be conscious.

Okay, my serious answer is actually this... I still don't believe that you will be snuffed out here to get fryed there.

Quote

And since we are also discussing morality, I don't personally need an imaginary reward/punishment system to guide my behavior. I simply don't wish to cause harm to others, and if by doing that I happen to follow the ten commandments, well, Hallelujah

Would that be an innate quality that God gave everyone? Ooops.. I mean would you term this morality that you have, without consequences, to be an innate quality? :D

I quite easily see you singing "Hallelujah" with the rest of us.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #51 on:** September 26, 2005, 06:20:32 PM »

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Christianity promotes communism! :D

Someone once told me that true Marxism has to do with equality. But what do I know of that kind of thing.

Anyways...

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Somebody ain't reading his bible.

I prefer the KJV. Perhaps due to the fact that everyone I knew owned and read the KJV. But now I include other translations in my reading. But there is one translation that I am not familiar with. Its called the HPTB - Harry's Personal Translation of the Bible. :D

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Good for you. Maybe you don't have the "winning ticket" either. Funny how all members of all the different religions feel the same as you. I bet it's because that's how you (not you personally, just folks in general) were raised to believe.

Actually, I was baptized and indoctrinated in the PAOC (Pentecostalism) when I was in my early teens. And I was "raised" to believe that we were the ONLY ones who had and understood the truth. But that was then, this is now.

Quote

Interesting story I read a few months ago. It was a true story shared by someone who really, deeeeep down, with ALL his heart, truely believed in a place called "hell". He never thought that this life was some sort of perverse test and then nothing more. This person actually did the most interesting things to warn people of this bad place and called them to repent. He would eventually cry and preach in the lunch rooms (and elsewhere) and eventually got worse. He would find himself running out of his church in tears because he could not understand why the rest of his church didn't have the same passion and behave according to it. He eventually could not sleep at nights and his mind and soul was overtaken by grief. He almost went crazy, and probably would have if not for his talks with a preacher who was "universalist".

Now that's what I'm talking about! That fella fits into the "very few" catagory. He truely had a belief in an underlying reality of his religion. Why should you care if you have some anxiety and unrest in this relatively spit of time in the grandness of eternity?

You like that story, eh? You ask an interesting question. The answer is because it does matter. To believe in a God that causes yourself to get destroyed in anxiety and unrest is problematic. Many have ended up in mental insitutes for this very thing. Especially when it comes to the moral issue. Your 100% obsessive devotion idea becomes harmful depending on what that belief is. And should a 100 percent belief in something lead you to act upon it every waking moment, every second, every moment of every day? Perhaps, perhaps not. I think how total devotion works might not fit with your implications/expectancies in the real world.

Perhaps another illustration might help? You said:

Quote

Now billions of people may say they believe in God, but very few people actually do. If people genuinely believe they would live every minute of every day in support of that belief.

A belief in God would require 100% obsessive devotion, influencing every single waking moment of their lives of this brief life on earth.

When belief does not control your every decision every day of your brief life, it is not belief in any underlying reality

You use words such as "they would" "would require" "influencing every" and "control". My Harry, you really that rigid? Didn't know things were that black and white to you.

With other words - A true devotee of God requires him/her to be influenced and controlled by what they believe of that God, whether it makes him go mad or causes him to destroy and kill himself or others. Heretic, I don't see sanity in that kind of logic. Now before you accuse me of taking liberty in your words, lets just ask the others who have read your several posts. Okay, okay...maybe I am being a smart ass here..but it was fun! :D

But more seriously. Here is another example/question we could use. Snt.johnny created a new thread called "Harry's Huckleberry". Here is what snt.johnny said:

I have decided to start a thread dedicated and devoted to the explicit goal of converting Heretic to Christianity.

Perhaps you would then expect our forum Apologist to bunk in with you twenty four seven. Crying with godly tears and heartfelt love to repent, and showing you through objective facts that God is real...constantly doing all he can to persuade you to christianity. And maybe then you would expect him to take a mortar for you to prove all is real!!

Hee hee, ooops, just got a call..gotta run.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #52 on:** September 26, 2005, 07:11:21 PM »

heheheheh good tie-in geegee. Impressive. Would that do it, Harry? My limp dead body parts lying in a heap around you? Would I be willing to do such a thing? Actually, yea. But the kicker is I'd do it for anyone. You can see how tactically, God would run out of apologists demanding that approach in a very short time. :) And its not even full proof!

Surely then you'd reason that there is no direct relationship between fervency of belief and truth of belief, right?

Stathei · « **Reply #53 on:** September 26, 2005, 07:12:41 PM »

Overheard in Sntjohnny's local WalMart:

Cashier: That will be five dollars and 23 cents with tax.
SntJ: "Dollars"? What do you mean by "dollars"? Are you referring to my concept of "dollars" or your own? And "five" means different things to different people, you know. And don't get me started on "cents" or "tax" for that matter. I'll gladly pay you, but you need to me more specific!
Cashier: Paper or - never mind...

At the risk of being egotistical, let me quote myself: "...I know that the answer will be far from straight."
Geegee, I am glad that you refer to me as "friend", my friend :D - however, you gave me a little bit of the "yes and no"s yourself.

Can anyone answer my very simple question without my having to qualify it so much that no one will ever bother to read the resulting five page nonsense?

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #54 on:** September 26, 2005, 07:53:21 PM »

Dude. All you need to do is tell me which way you want to go.

I'll quote MYSELF:

"I want to give you a straight answer, but first I need a straight question."

Just because you THINK you are asking an intelligent question doesn't mean you are.

I am giving you the opportunity to clarify your question so that we can work out the kinks in advance rather then post-mortem. I have now said that I would be willing to forgo asking you to actually explain what it is you mean (OMG, is it bizarro world when we expect an atheist to actually KNOW what they mean when they use words????!?!?), so long as you were willing to accept the modifications that I make to your question to actually make it coherent. Without whining.

Pardon me as I now knowingly descend into patronization, but since you want to fight the hill of "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah he won't answer my question waaaaaaaaaaaah" after only ONE POST of mine seeking clarification, you are driving me to it. Is that really the hill you want to die on?

I think you are pulling a Harry, though. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to ask a ridiculous question and then whine and moan that you don't get the 'straight answer that you want.

Now, as I said right in the beginning of this portion of the conversation, it MAY VERY WELL BE that you are asking a coherent question. But you decided to wuss out of defending it as a coherent question by saying its not your job to know what words mean since they aren't 'your' words. This, combined with other things you have said that don't jibe with actual Christian views but you think do, makes me think you just want to be an instigator.

I give you another chance to show other wise. Pick your poison. Either clarify, or let me modify without post-argument whining.

cimics · « **Reply #55 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:30:15 PM »

Quote

Cashier: That will be five dollars and 23 cents with tax.
SntJ: "Dollars"? What do you mean by "dollars"? Are you referring to my concept of "dollars" or your own?

Suppose you are in France. Canadian or US? You say, "I said DOLLARS. You should know what I mean!!!"

And it's not like SJ hasn't gone to some effort to define terms. He directed you to the "forum rule regarding Hell" thread

Zagzagel · « **Reply #56 on:** September 26, 2005, 08:30:50 PM »

Strat. Did I answer the wrong question? I promise to give an answer as soon as you let me know. Thanks.

Stathei · « **Reply #57 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:15:48 AM »

Sntjohnny, I'm afraid your technique of accusing me of whining won't work with me. I have asked an extremely simple question which you are refusing to answer by blaming me for not defining each word that I use.

The reason I ask the question is because I am interested in learning whether Christians believe that it is more important to believe in Jesus and God than to live a good life (I can already hear you saying "define good"). If it is too difficult a question for you to answer without a four hour conversation defining exactly what I mean by each word, followed by another four hour conversation defining exactly what you mean by each word, then I will ask someone who is prepared to give me the answer.

I already know that the honest answer to my original question is "Yes, atheist, you will go to hell when you die" - but I'd like a Christian to actually have the guts to say it.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #58 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:30:44 AM »

You're being daft.

Whether or not you have asked a simple question or not is precisely my point.

I notice that once again you have declined to even say whether or not I am free to go on and answer the question without having you clarify your question.

The way I see it, you don't WANT me to answer, because you prefer if your theists stay in your little box. This is the same little box that you stuffed geegee into.

I believe I am on my third time offering to answer the question without any extra effort of your own, provided you don't piss and moan that I had to clean up your 'simple' question to make sure it really IS simple.

So what's it going to be? You going to whine again (you are definately whining) that no one wants to answer your question or are you finally going to give me permission to answer the question with the necessary caveats it need?

How much effort does that take from you, guy? Here copy and paste this:

"I, Stathei, give you, Sntjohnny, permission to answer my 'simple question' with the understanding that when the question is answered certain modifications may be necessary for it to really BE simple, and therefore in recognition of that POSSIBILITY, I will not whine after such mods are made."

There, just cut and paste that in. Or, if you are truly lazy, just type in the word 'go.'

I capitalized 'POSSIBILITY' because as I have been clear since this came up, it may very well be that you do grasp the meaning of the words you are using. I can't know without your clarifications. *shrug* I'm going to go check and see if there was anything in that follow up post that you can legitimately object to.

You need to see it from my perspective. You are the same man that said 'I know how Christians present their views' and then also 'its not like I believe in CHristianity so how should I know what the words mean.' You want to be presumptous without being open to correction when actual Christians challenge your pre-conceptions. In that context, I think my original concern, that I may answer your question without you understanding me, is a valid concern.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #59 on:** September 27, 2005, 07:38:07 AM »

Here is the relevant portion of my post immediately following your straight question:

Quote

"will I go to hell for being an unbeliever, even if that is my only sin?"

I understand you want a straight answer, but you've got to ask the question in words I understand. In this example you have the words 'hell' 'unbeliever' and 'sin' and I am not certain that you understand these terms in the same way that I do (or even most Christians, for that matter).

For example, 'hell' is a muddled concept altogether. Please see the forum rule on 'hell' in the Christianity forum.

'unbeliever' is probably pretty straight forward. I assume you mean not a believer in the God of Christianity in particular.

'sin' however can be understood in many ways. I am certain that I see the word in a much broader context than you do. But this is not certain. Can you elaborate?

With these clarifications I will give you the straight answer according to what YOU mean by the question, and then I will give you the straight answer to the question put more precisely according to what I mean by the question.

I don't see anything evasive, patronizing, or condescending about my approach here. I am expressing a legitimate concern that you may not be aware that your question is not as precise as you think it is.

You responded to this by grouping me with Bill Clinton. I resent that you would stoop to such a low blow....

uh..... eh...... uh...... anyway....

Author Topic: You don't believe in God. (Read 15201 times)

Stathei

Stathei

Stathei

Stathei