Topic: Where did God come from? (Read 12013 times)

matt · « **Reply #20 on:** November 29, 2004, 08:06:04 PM »

This is the best I can explain it.

In the Christian account of Creation, nothing existed prior to the Creation except God. There was no time or space; there was no preexisting matter. Everything else that exists besides God depends totally upon God for its existence. If God did not exist, the world would not exist. The cosmos is not eternal, self-sufficient, or self-explanatory. It was freely created by God. The existence of the world, therefore, is not a brute fact; nor is the world a purposeless machine. The world exists as the result of a free decision to create by a God who is eternal, transcendent, spiritual, omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, loving, and personal. Because there is a God ordained order to the creation, human beings can discover that order. It is this order that makes science possible; it is this order that scientists attempt to capture in their laws.

Heretic · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2004, 12:51:09 AM »

It's at that point that we consider that God may be the most probable alternative.

No, you may consider that, I do not. I consider randomness brought all this together to form UAWKI.

As for the 'eternal' part of your post;

Sure, something eternal existed, matter and energy. Awarness is a product of evolution. Explains it adequately for me. You don't accept this premise so you say it inadaquate, doesnt mean it it is though.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2004, 02:02:19 PM »

What's UWKAI?

matt · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2004, 02:14:58 PM »

UAWKI (Universe As We Know It).

Quote

No, you may consider that, I do not. I consider randomness brought all this together to form UAWKI.

Okay. You can say that randomness and an accumulation of mutations happened by chance to form a new species or the UAWKI. Now, the variations of mutation, logically, have to start from somewhere, whether that be a bird or a small molecular living cell. Darwin explains microevolution very well. The variations and such are explained greatly in detail. However, the complex structures still arise the question of how those complex structures came to be? Everything goes back to the starting point. Unless, you are saying that a complex structure such as vision can evolve from a random chance of mutations. Do you believe that?

The Random Chance of Life:
First of all, the Big Bang says the universe is 15 billion years old.

Agnostic biophysicist Dr. Harold Morowitz wondered:

Quote

Suppose you break all chemical bonds in a simple bacteria and put resulting atoms under ideal chemical conditions

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2004, 03:43:12 PM »

Though there is possibly there is moren than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000 planets in UAWKI.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRGH by sntjohnny

matt · « **Reply #25 on:** November 30, 2004, 03:50:20 PM »

How does that pertain to the question? Is there more universe like us? I think that is a no. Give me evidence that there are that many planets. :D That peeks my curiousity.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2004, 04:10:06 PM »

Ofcourse there are many like us.

matt · « **Reply #27 on:** November 30, 2004, 04:11:47 PM »

Really, thats funny that you say that because I have never heard or seen of any evidence pertaining to many universes that are made up of life such as us.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #28 on:** December 01, 2004, 02:20:04 PM »

There are many theories.

matt · « **Reply #29 on:** December 01, 2004, 03:27:36 PM »

Theories. Well, there is the keyword. Theories are not facts, and theories prove absolutely nothing. They can be believed, but until solid empirical evidence proves the theory then it means nothing.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #30 on:** December 01, 2004, 04:04:24 PM »

Creationism is just a theory. Though that theory is just a religious theory.

matt · « **Reply #31 on:** December 01, 2004, 04:37:12 PM »

My worldview is that of Christianity. The way we evaluate worldviews is critical. Honest inquirers say to themselves, "Here is what I know about the inner and outer worlds. Now which touchstone proposition, which worldview, does the best job of making sense of all this? The superior theory is the one that coheres best with everything else we know; the better interpretation, explanation, or answer is the one that most nearly fits all the data.

This is from "Worldviews in Conflict" by Ronald H. Nash:

But what about certainty? Individuals might ask, is there not something sacrilegious about a purported justification of religious belief that leaves us with nothing more than probability? Is there not an alternative approach that would allow us to believe with certainty? And if so, would not such an alternative have more to commend it than, say, a system that promises nothing more than probability?

This is where, I believe, that the difference between the kind of certainty called logical certainty and moral certainty needs to be understood by the questioner.

Heretic · « **Reply #32 on:** December 02, 2004, 07:29:01 AM »

I'd love to reply in more depth, however I got just a few minutes out here in the war zone. So I'll just say;

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 buy a lottery ticket, What's the chance YOU will win?

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 : 1

Seems an impossibility doesn't it?

What's the chances SOMEBODY will win?

1:1 100% It's going to happen.

'nuff said.

end the madness, declares sntjohnny

Matt:
Tha's a mighty purty worldview you have there, just remember, not all of us base our worldviews upon the 'feel-good' principle.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #33 on:** December 02, 2004, 02:18:48 PM »

Good comment, Heretic. :D

Elisha · « **Reply #34 on:** December 02, 2004, 10:24:35 PM »

A quick reply...

Heretic,

You said the universe "as we know it began to exist", but if the universe we know began to exist, then so did matter, time, space, etc. Matter and energy can't have always existed in time, because that leads to absurdities.

I don't have the time to explain much, so I'll be brief. What that amounts to is an actual infinite existing in time, which is demonstrably impossible. William Lane Craig has given such a refutation here. Atheistic philosophers have agreed with him, but usually backslide to the universe beginning to exist from nothing or re-interpreting traditional Big Bang cosmology. No serious scientist or philosopher would say matter has always existed, because that requires time to always have existed and that leads to Craig's arguments against an actual infinite.

You then attempt to take up a quiet obsolete skeptical argument... the infamously rather hilarious lottery ticket analogy. The analogy is WAY off. Try an analogy where someone is blindfolded in the middle of space and RANDOMLY throws a dart into space. That dart would have to hit a target UNIMAGINEABLY small... smaller than an atom.

To believe that goes against the inference to best explanation, cuts itself on Occam's Razor far worse than anything I've ever seen, and goes against common appeal.

This is just a brief response. My next one will be more in-depth. Until then... I welcome a response.

Good day.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #35 on:** December 03, 2004, 01:47:44 PM »

I would please like everyone to hit the "Enter" key once after each line
ends. This way it'll be easier for everyone to read the replies. Thank-you.

Elisha · « **Reply #36 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:04:52 PM »

Oi... the joys of dementia... I typed it up in notepad, because, as several people have already noted, sometimes when you type up a reply in a post box everything will become blank.
Then again you did type "everyone", so I won't be too offended; especially seeing that Heretic just typed in the same fashion which you complained about, yet you replied to his post with an embracing response.

Ciao, bud.

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #37 on:** December 03, 2004, 02:09:20 PM »

I was thinking about not even reading your post Elisha! Though I think you
were trying to be funny.

matt · « **Reply #38 on:** December 03, 2004, 03:51:31 PM »

Elisha's post makes total sense. Now do you see the point of the first law of thermodynamics in relation to the eternality of the universe?

TheAntiChrist · « **Reply #39 on:** December 03, 2004, 04:00:53 PM »

Please show me that post or tell me where it is.

Author Topic: Where did God come from? (Read 12013 times)