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Anthony Horvath

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A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« on: November 08, 2007, 09:27:09 AM »

It is ironic given a number of other conversations going on in this forum that I would then read a series that encompasses all of them.  For example, though they themselves are skeptical about the many-worlds interpretation, in fact the multiverse is mainstream.  Pullman uses the multiverse in such a way so that things said to be impossible in our universe he is perfectly willing to tolerate them in other universes, and he allows evolution to produce all sorts of creatures, like, for example, a talking bear, which if found in the Christian Scriptures would have evoked ridicule.

Also, atheists on this board have argued that if a miracle ever did happen, that would just call for a change in what we think are the laws of nature.  In fact, the 'miraculous' happens all the time in the Pullman series, but of course with unlimited universes to work with and the creative power of evolution, it is only logical to believe it happened (or is happening) in some universe, somewhere.  I have contended that this would make atheism effectively unfalsifiable.

At the very least, if one is willing to entertain such ideas as being possible in some other universe- even though we actually have no knowledge that any such universes exist- then one should be willing to give a fair evaluation to claims that they may have happened in the one universe we know.

Below is a fuller summary, which was posted at my blog.  Also at my blog, is an extended, 15 page response.  You can download it in PDF and print it, if you like.  Link to the blog:  http://sntjohnny.com/front/archives/126  Link to the PDF:   http://sntjohnny.com/front/download/1/

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Extended Summary (page 3 of the extended response)

EXTENDED SUMMARY RESPONSE

Brief Summary of a Christian Response to Pullman
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 06:39:07 PM »

I just skimmed the Golden Compass, mainly to get a feel for this anti-Christian agenda of Pullman's. I do note that there is talk of the Church throughout, and that this is supposed to represent evil. Once this is defeated at the end, his main characters sort of walk off into a sunset, but one wonders what this actually represents. I suppose it is a form of freedom, but when you have freedom from something (the Church in this case), then that presupposes a freedom for something. I can't imagine a child reading this and understanding what they have to gain from Pullman's version of freedom. I, frankly, didn't see it. Pullman also complains about a grim ending for the children in Narnia, but the whole scene of the bear fight was a bit grim too. How could the god of nothingness Pullman believes in be so cruel? I gather this must be something of a feminist god or rather goddess, because the witches speak of men as if they were mere servants to the women. My question for Pullman: Does the world really need MORE radical feminism? Or does it need less? And since the feminists and their Gaya worship has been around for so bleeding long, how is any of this original? I've seen it all before, just presented with less glitz. You know you can chocolate coat a road apple, but it still won't be very palatable.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 08:35:26 AM »

I've read a couple of Christian commentators mentioning the 'hopelessness' of the HDM series.  Pullman eventually comes to the issue in book 3 in the chapter "There is Now."  Here is the quote in full:

Quote
  At the summit of the slope [Mary Malone] looked for the last time at the Dust stream, with the clouds and the wind blowing across it and the moon standing firm in the middle.
  And then she saw what the great urgent purpose was.
  They were trying to hold back the Dust flood.  They were striving to put some barriers up against the terrible stream:  wind, moon, clouds, leaves, grass, all those lovely things were crying out and hurtling themselves into the struggle to keep the shadow particles in this universe, which they so enriched.
   Matter loved Dust.  It didn't want to see it go.  That was the meaning of this night, and it was Mary's meaning too.
  Had she thought there was no meaning in life, no purpose, when God had gone?  Yes she had thought that.
  "Well, there is now," she said aloud, and again, louder:  "There is now!"
   "As she looked again at the clouds and the moon in the Dust flow, they looked as frail and doomed as a dam of little twigs and tiny pebbles trying to hold back the Mississippi.  But they were trying, all the same.  They'd go on trying till the end of everything."

Pretty weak, if you ask me, and misses all the critical points.   Here Mary is trying to keep Dust in this universe, the 'Dust' enriching it.  But when she strives to keep the Dust in that universe, enriching it, that would mean keeping it from enriching some other universe, wouldn't it?  What right does she have to do that?  Anyway, her new 'meaning' seems to me like a mudpie compared to the great Feast, where there is an abundance for all and satisfying one does not mean depriving another.

Your points about cruelty are worth talking about.  Throughout the series the Church is maligned for the evil things that it does... it almost seems as though he has a sense of absolute right and wrong in order to decide if something is evil... doesn't it?  Where did he get that?  Evolution?   
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 10:04:42 AM »

Very fittingly, this reminds me of a scene from The Pilgrim's Progress:

Quote
[Christiana and her company] went into a room where was a man that could look no way but downwards with a muck rake in his hand.  There stood also one over his head, with a celestial crown in his hand and proffered to give him that crown for his muck rake;  but the man did neither look up nor regard, but raked to himself the straws, the small sticks, and the dust of the floor.
  Then said Christiana, "I persuade myself that I know somewhat of the meaning of this;  for this is a figure of a man of this world.  Is it not, good sir?"
  INTERPRETER:  "Thou has said the right," said he;  "and his muck rake doth show his carnal mind. And whereas thou seest him rather give heed to rake up straws and sticks, and the dust of the floor, than to do what he says that calls to him from above with the celestial crown in his hand;  it is to show that heaven is but a fable to some, and that things here are counted the only things substantial.  Now, whereas it was also showed thee that the man could look no way but downwards; it is to let thee know that earthly things, when they are with power upon men's minds, quite carry their hearts away from God."

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 04:20:29 PM »

I read the entire series and somewhat enjoyed it.  Fantasy doesn't interest me as much as it used to (except for Jack Vance's work, of course), and this is sort of SF-flavored fantasy.  The "multiverse" theme is an old one in SF, and the Pullman series was partly meant to be taken as a fictional poke in the eye to CS Lewis's pro-Christian fantasies.  The series doesn't really come off as more atheistic than lots of similar fantasy and SF writing in that it presents an alternative view of reality to the one that Christians believe in.  We find that same thing throughout much of the SF genre.  Pullman, however, aims specifically at Christian religious themes, so it is bound to attract the ire of the pious.  I didn't seem much in the series that would actually shake anybody's faith in Christianity.  Rather, it is just another "what-if" exercise that has some interesting twists on religious orthodoxy.  What if the Christian account of reality were really true?  Might there be a deeper story that would fit with materialist assumptions?  Pullman creates his version of how that might go.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 08:33:40 AM »

"Pullman, however, aims specifically at Christian religious themes, so it is bound to attract the ire of the pious."

I think it is more than that in two ways.  1.  he explicitly states that he means to undermine Christianity 2.  They are turning his book into a movie.

He has always been more popular in Britain than in America but issuing the book in a movie is a winning strategy in this country.  There are plenty of other anti-Christian works out there, sci-fi and otherwise, but they don't attract ire simply because they are not on the radar nor are they as like to be overtly evangelistic.

"I didn't seem much in the series that would actually shake anybody's faith in Christianity."

We had somebody on this forum whose faith was shaken by it, or at least influenced some thinking.  Remember Sir Somebody Something?

"Rather, it is just another "what-if" exercise that has some interesting twists on religious orthodoxy.  What if the Christian account of reality were really true?  Might there be a deeper story that would fit with materialist assumptions?  Pullman creates his version of how that might go."

This is a very curious thing to say and I wonder if I understand it correctly.  If my comments to follow do not fit with what you meant feel free to clarify.

Do  I understand you to mean by 'interesting twists on religious orthodoxy' that you think the Pullman series is consistent with orthodox Christianity, but cast in materialistic terms?   I am trying to figure out how "the Christian account of reality is really true" can fit with "and it fits with materialist assumptions."  Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 01:14:24 PM »

I think it is more than that in two ways.  1.  he explicitly states that he means to undermine Christianity 2.  They are turning his book into a movie.

Translation:  He is not just an accursed atheist, but an accursedly greedy atheist.   [smile

Quote
He has always been more popular in Britain than in America but issuing the book in a movie is a winning strategy in this country.  There are plenty of other anti-Christian works out there, sci-fi and otherwise, but they don't attract ire simply because they are not on the radar nor are they as like to be overtly evangelistic.

I think that this movie follows on the heels of a lot of anti-Christian themes in both literature and the movie.  One attraction that this movie holds for a potential audience is its heretical theme.  The Da Vinci Code was quite controversial, but both the movie and the book were mediocre. 

Aside from its heretical aspects, I think that Pullman's book had potential for a good movie plot with lots of twists.  It also has an epic flavor that lends itself to a good set of sequels, if the movie is done well enough.

Quote
"I didn't seem much in the series that would actually shake anybody's faith in Christianity."

We had somebody on this forum whose faith was shaken by it, or at least influenced some thinking.  Remember Sir Somebody Something?

Was he influenced by the Golden Compass series?  I didn't recall that.

Quote
Do  I understand you to mean by 'interesting twists on religious orthodoxy' that you think the Pullman series is consistent with orthodox Christianity, but cast in materialistic terms?   I am trying to figure out how "the Christian account of reality is really true" can fit with "and it fits with materialist assumptions."  Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

I meant "consistent" in the sense that the basic story of the NT is assumed to be true.  Like the Da Vinci Code, Pullman's book constructs an alternative interpretation of the events that is compatible with a materialist universe.  That is, one could reject supernaturalism as an explanation of what really happened.  Of course, the Golden Compass is pure speculative fantasy (sans supernaturalism), and it was never intended to be taken as anything more than just that.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 02:57:53 PM »

"Translation:  He is not just an accursed atheist, but an accursedly greedy atheist.   Smile"

No, Translation:  His series will finally become known in the US because of the power of the movie to drive interest in our culture.

"Was he influenced by the Golden Compass series?  I didn't recall that."

Apparently.  I have tried to contact him to ask it straight out but have not heard back.  I found a couple of his posts which contain many elements that I saw in HDM, and he cites Pullman.   I hadn't read HDM at that time.  I don't even think I had heard about it.

"I meant "consistent" in the sense that the basic story of the NT is assumed to be true."

See, that confuses me, because the NT is basically the story of Jesus- God incarnate- coming to the rescue of fallen mankind, demonstrating in vivid terms that God is not indifferent to human suffering, but willing to participate in it in order to redeem it.  HDM posits a God that, besides being senile, creates human suffering and exploits the greed and lust of humanity to form oppressive regimes that somehow benefit him.   Moreover, there is no mention at all of the incarnation, Jesus gets named maybe twice, in passing.  But the incarnation of God, and the death and resurrection are what the Christian religion is built around.

I don't see how it can assume that the basic story of the NT is true when in fact it is flatly ignored.  From a theological perspective, the 'God' in HDM is closer to a Muslim conception which does not have an incarnation.

At any rate, most could see the argument that John 3:16 is the core of the NT:

Quote
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Pullman insists that God does not love the world, ignores the giving of the son, and insists that the eternal life business is a lie- Yahweh sends believers and unbelievers alike to a realm of the dead which Lyra and Will seek out to destroy, the result of which is not new life in a resurrected body but dissipation of a person's matter into the universe, pantheism style.

So which part exactly is consistent with the NT?

"Of course, the Golden Compass is pure speculative fantasy (sans supernaturalism), and it was never intended to be taken as anything more than just that."

Oh, I don't think so.   Pullman explicitly stated in an interview that he wanted to undermine Christianity.  Undergirding this speculative fantasy is evolutionary theory and the multiverse.  You could argue that, if both of these are true, there is in fact a universe in which the Golden Compass world is real.  I doubt Pullman would say that, but I've been hanging out with you long enough to know that you would be willing to believe an absurdity like that rather than the Christian account ;)  Any materialistic explanation, no matter how absurd, is to be preferred over a supernaturalistic explanation.

Also, it does raise themes that are quite serious, some of which Sir SomebodySomething raised here.  Namely, what if God is the bad guy and Satan (ok, Satan is absent too, but you get the idea) is the good guy?  How does one know?   I'm not saying that it is bad to ask this question.  I think it is a good idea to ask it.  Pullman asks it, posits God as the bad guy that we are all glad to see get whacked, without dealing with the underlying substantive question which is really interesting, which is, just how does one know what is 'good' in the first place?

The most he says is that 'good is what helps someone.'  One sentence to justify 3 books.  Ok, that's a weakness of the series, but I'm not protesting that this argument is being made.  I am protesting your argument that it is nothing more than speculative fantasy and never meant to be any more than that.  His own words show otherwise but as the series ends with almost 50 pages of Mary Malone 'the temptress' laying out her evangelistic appeal for raw materialism, I think the series itself argues against your assertion, too.

I'm probably being too hard on you.  You probably read the series 5 years ago and I only read them a month ago and have been researching it.  But I would still be happy to hear you explain how the series is consistent with the NT at all.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 04:03:39 PM »

"I meant "consistent" in the sense that the basic story of the NT is assumed to be true."

See, that confuses me, because the NT is basically the story of Jesus- God incarnate- coming to the rescue of fallen mankind, demonstrating in vivid terms that God is not indifferent to human suffering, but willing to participate in it in order to redeem it.  HDM posits a God that, besides being senile, creates human suffering and exploits the greed and lust of humanity to form oppressive regimes that somehow benefit him.   Moreover, there is no mention at all of the incarnation, Jesus gets named maybe twice, in passing.  But the incarnation of God, and the death and resurrection are what the Christian religion is built around.

You are taking what I said too literally, so let me retract it.  What I meant was that the Bible is assumed to have gotten some things right, but not necessarily everything.  For example, it assumes that the super-powerful being called Yahweh really existed.  Angels also existed.  But there are alternate realities, and the true nature of these beings is not fully revealed in our scripture.  The story produces a fictional caricature of your religion, and intentionally so.

Quote
Pullman insists that God does not love the world, ignores the giving of the son, and insists that the eternal life business is a lie- Yahweh sends believers and unbelievers alike to a realm of the dead which Lyra and Will seek out to destroy, the result of which is not new life in a resurrected body but dissipation of a person's matter into the universe, pantheism style.

I think that you are getting ahead of the story that is in the Golden Compass.  The journey into the underworld came much later.  Don't spoil the ending for everyone.  Sheesh!  What a curmudgeon you are!   [smile

Quote
"Of course, the Golden Compass is pure speculative fantasy (sans supernaturalism), and it was never intended to be taken as anything more than just that."

Oh, I don't think so.   Pullman explicitly stated in an interview that he wanted to undermine Christianity.  Undergirding this speculative fantasy is evolutionary theory and the multiverse.

You are still getting yourself all worked up over nothing.  I doubt that his book will have much impact on anyone, SSS notwithstanding.  Atheists have existed throughout recorded history, long before Pullman ever got around to creating his little fantasy.  And let's keep evolution theory, an actual scientific theory, apart from speculations about a "multiverse", of which there are many, many versions. 

Quote
...You could argue that, if both of these are true, there is in fact a universe in which the Golden Compass world is real.  I doubt Pullman would say that, but I've been hanging out with you long enough to know that you would be willing to believe an absurdity like that rather than the Christian account ;)  Any materialistic explanation, no matter how absurd, is to be preferred over a supernaturalistic explanation.

My friend, you have gone off into another strawman construction tirade.  I do not share your assumption that the quantum many-worlds interpretation actually means that any imaginable alternative reality exists.  As for naturalistic explanations, what we find is that most Christians allow such explanations to trump supernaturalistic explanations.  Leibniz thought that the theory of gravity was sacrilegious because it made no reference to God.  Most Christians no longer feel quite so strongly about it.  Similarly, many Christians now embrace evolution as natural and consistent with their belief in God.  What I believe is not that any natural explanation is always superior to a supernatural one, but that supernatural explanations almost always appear absurd when juxtaposed to alternative natural ones.  That said, I don't really find Pullman's story even the slightest bit plausible.  It is a fictional romp.

Quote
Also, it does raise themes that are quite serious, some of which Sir SomebodySomething raised here.  Namely, what if God is the bad guy and Satan (ok, Satan is absent too, but you get the idea) is the good guy?  How does one know?   I'm not saying that it is bad to ask this question.  I think it is a good idea to ask it.  Pullman asks it, posits God as the bad guy that we are all glad to see get whacked, without dealing with the underlying substantive question which is really interesting, which is, just how does one know what is 'good' in the first place?

I think that people ought to read the novels and make their own judgments in that respect.  I think that Pullman's twists and turns cause us to ponder the nature of good and evil in interesting ways.  To what extent can we ground our morality in religious authoritarianism?  So he really does raise the question of what is 'good' in the first place, but he does it in the context of his imaginary tale.

Quote
The most he says is that 'good is what helps someone.'  One sentence to justify 3 books.  Ok, that's a weakness of the series, but I'm not protesting that this argument is being made.  I am protesting your argument that it is nothing more than speculative fantasy and never meant to be any more than that.  His own words show otherwise but as the series ends with almost 50 pages of Mary Malone 'the temptress' laying out her evangelistic appeal for raw materialism, I think the series itself argues against your assertion, too.

I meant it in the same sense that a morality play is nothing more than fiction.  The play itself is not meant to be taken seriously.  The questions and issues it raises are.

Quote
I'm probably being too hard on you.  You probably read the series 5 years ago and I only read them a month ago and have been researching it.  But I would still be happy to hear you explain how the series is consistent with the NT at all.

Actually, I just read it a few months ago, upon the recommendation of a colleague at work.  I didn't find it as good a read as I had hoped, but I enjoyed it.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 05:26:05 PM »

"You are taking what I said too literally, so let me retract it."

That was probably a pretty good idea.  Heavens forbid I take you at your word.  ;)

"I think that you are getting ahead of the story that is in the Golden Compass.  The journey into the underworld came much later.  Don't spoil the ending for everyone.  Sheesh!  What a curmudgeon you are!   Smile"

heh just a little.

"You are still getting yourself all worked up over nothing.  I doubt that his book will have much impact on anyone, SSS notwithstanding."

There is 'something' here and it isn't because I'm getting 'worked' up. 

"And let's keep evolution theory, an actual scientific theory, apart from speculations about a "multiverse", of which there are many, many versions."

The multiverse is also an actual scientific theory, unless you are here emphasizing a specific understanding of the word 'theory.'  I have often pointed out on this forum that though atheists like yourself are embarrassed by it, the multiverse is becoming the mainstream view. 

"My friend, you have gone off into another strawman construction tirade.  I do not share your assumption that the quantum many-worlds interpretation actually means that any imaginable alternative reality exists."

Oh, don't misunderstand.  I certainly don't think you believe that.  But do you have rational reasons for thinking that?  No, just a sense that that would be absurd.  If one takes the many-worlds interpretation seriously and extends it as far as it can logically go, while you can't say that any imaginable alternative reality exists, you also can't say that it doesn't exist.  And with huge amounts of universes to work with, improbable scenarios can't be dismissed merely because they are improbable, just as it is improbable that a person can win the lottery five times in a row but if you make the attempt a trillion trillion times, its bound to happen sometime.

"As for naturalistic explanations, what we find is that most Christians allow such explanations to trump supernaturalistic explanations."

You mean atheists?

"What I believe is not that any natural explanation is always superior to a supernatural one, but that supernatural explanations almost always appear absurd when juxtaposed to alternative natural ones."

I've seen that process at work in you but we need not re-visit it here.  I'll merely restate my position which is that an evidence driven view takes precedence over perceptions of absurdity.  If it were evolution we were talking about, you'd say, yes, find evolution absurd, but if there is evidence for it, you are just going to have to change your perception.  Well, same thing for the supernatural.  There is historical evidence for a resurrection and though you have taken much liberty in spinning naturalistic interpretations of that evidence, the historical evidence is not consistent with that interpretation.  But you choose to favor those interpretations anyway because a resurrection strikes you as absurd on its face (evidence be d--ned) while the legend hypothesis has no evidence but at least is plausible and has the added benefit of being naturalistic.

There, that's 20 posts between us summed up nicely.  :)

"I think that people ought to read the novels and make their own judgments in that respect."

Don't misunderstand me.  I'm not suggesting otherwise.  However, if he does make more of an argument that is more substantive than that counteracts your insistence that there is no overt agenda that will not have an impact on anyone.  ;)

"So he really does raise the question of what is 'good' in the first place, but he does it in the context of his imaginary tale."

I think I said that.  I think I said that he doesn't answer it, either, except in the one line.

"I meant it in the same sense that a morality play is nothing more than fiction.  The play itself is not meant to be taken seriously.  The questions and issues it raises are."

Sure, I mean it the same way, without the suggestion that fiction is not really anything.  So why can't I take issue with the questions and issues the story raises and point out that the author of the series intended them to serve a purpose beyond merely telling a story?

"Actually, I just read it a few months ago, upon the recommendation of a colleague at work."

Well, then, I stand corrected.  The gloves are off.  ;)

You realize that even in your qualification of what ways the NT is correct that you still don't have consistency with the NT?  For example, the 'superpowerful' being 'Yahweh' you are saying is being assumed to exist cannot be, by definition, the God of the NT.  HDM even speaks on occasion to the notion "Maybe there is a Creator, but we don't know" distinguishing that entity from Yahweh.  But the God of the NT is, by definition, the Creator therefore the 'Yahweh Christian God' in HDM cannot be the actual Christian God.

The only similarities at this point would seem to be in nomenclature.  Substantively, God as Christians understand him is nothing like the HDM God, the angels as Christians understand them are nothing like the HDM gods, the Christian view on matter is not as HDM presents the Christian view on matter, and on. 

You know this is kind of ironic, come to think of it.  You are on the record somewhere arguing that the Gospel of Thomas should be considered as on the par to the four Gospels.  But it is the Gospel of Thomas, with its gnostic tendencies, which argue that matter is evil and that our goal is to escape into the spiritual.  HDM is really rejecting and attacking Gnostic notions which Christianity would join him in rejecting.  Remember, Christianity believes that God created everything and called it 'good.'  Gnosticism is a heresy;  HDM presents it as the Christian position.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2007, 02:39:59 AM »

"And let's keep evolution theory, an actual scientific theory, apart from speculations about a "multiverse", of which there are many, many versions."

The multiverse is also an actual scientific theory, unless you are here emphasizing a specific understanding of the word 'theory.'  I have often pointed out on this forum that though atheists like yourself are embarrassed by it, the multiverse is becoming the mainstream view.

There is no single, coherent "multiverse" theory.  There are at least two different major versions of "alternate realities".  There is an astrophysics version and a quantum mechanics version.  Neither is actually considered "mainstream", and both have been proposed for different reasons.  From what I have read, they are not considered variants of each other.  Physicists are trying to come up with ways to distinguish these proposals from alternative hypotheses, so it is premature to elevate them to the status of theories.

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...If one takes the many-worlds interpretation seriously and extends it as far as it can logically go, while you can't say that any imaginable alternative reality exists, you also can't say that it doesn't exist.  And with huge amounts of universes to work with, improbable scenarios can't be dismissed merely because they are improbable, just as it is improbable that a person can win the lottery five times in a row but if you make the attempt a trillion trillion times, its bound to happen sometime.

Not being physicists, I don't see either of us as being in a position to say much about the scientific conjectures.  My own preference is not to jump to wild conclusions about what alternative universes would be like.  For example, we don't really know whether the physics of those alternative universes would be able to differ from ours, and, if they could, how much they could differ.  Winning the lottery does not violate the physics of our universe, so I have no problem with the idea that someone might win it five times in a row, given a sufficient amount of time.

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"As for naturalistic explanations, what we find is that most Christians allow such explanations to trump supernaturalistic explanations."

You mean atheists?

No, I meant Christians.  You represent a minority opinion when it comes to interpreting the Bible.  Most do not take Deuternomy quite so literally that they feel it necessary to challenge major scientific theories about geological, cosmological, and evolutionary theory.  Most Christians seem to think that evolution theory is compatible with Darwinian evolution in the same sense that, say, Francis Collins does.  Most seem to accept scientific claims that humans and dinosaurs did not cohabit the earth, since the fossil record so clearly contradicts that idea.  In short, most Christians seem to feel that natural explanations by scientists trump supernatural explanations, but supernaturalism can still be considered compatible with the natural explanations.

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"What I believe is not that any natural explanation is always superior to a supernatural one, but that supernatural explanations almost always appear absurd when juxtaposed to alternative natural ones."

I've seen that process at work in you but we need not re-visit it here.  I'll merely restate my position which is that an evidence driven view takes precedence over perceptions of absurdity.  If it were evolution we were talking about, you'd say, yes, find evolution absurd, but if there is evidence for it, you are just going to have to change your perception.  Well, same thing for the supernatural.  There is historical evidence for a resurrection and though you have taken much liberty in spinning naturalistic interpretations of that evidence, the historical evidence is not consistent with that interpretation.  But you choose to favor those interpretations anyway because a resurrection strikes you as absurd on its face (evidence be d-mn-d) while the legend hypothesis has no evidence but at least is plausible and has the added benefit of being naturalistic.

As long as you feel free to summarize the debate that way, then I'll give my alternative summary.  You have never proposed anything but historical hearsay "evidence" for the historicity of the resurrection, and that sort of evidence is exactly as trustworthy as the evidence for Krishna's resurrection, which is to say not at all.  It does not count as credible evidence for anybody but the already convinced.  On the other hand, the theory of evolution, which has been confirmed and corroborated with a wide variety of evidence for well over a century and has no serious scientific opposition is simply dismissed by you on the basis of your own unprofessional and biased assessment of a small set of data.  If you didn't have a religious agenda to pursue, you would have no trouble at all understanding and supporting speciation via natural selection.  I would say that that sums up about 20 posts.  ;)

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"I meant it in the same sense that a morality play is nothing more than fiction.  The play itself is not meant to be taken seriously.  The questions and issues it raises are."

Sure, I mean it the same way, without the suggestion that fiction is not really anything.  So why can't I take issue with the questions and issues the story raises and point out that the author of the series intended them to serve a purpose beyond merely telling a story?

I have never challenged your right to take issue with anything at all.  When I disagree with your claims, that does not mean that I am challenging your right to make them.  In fact, I doubt that the author objects to your criticisms, since the controversy only ensures a larger readership and box office. [smile

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You realize that even in your qualification of what ways the NT is correct that you still don't have consistency with the NT?  For example, the 'superpowerful' being 'Yahweh' you are saying is being assumed to exist cannot be, by definition, the God of the NT.  HDM even speaks on occasion to the notion "Maybe there is a Creator, but we don't know" distinguishing that entity from Yahweh.  But the God of the NT is, by definition, the Creator therefore the 'Yahweh Christian God' in HDM cannot be the actual Christian God.

I thought that I made clear in my last post that I take Pullman to see the Bible as errant on certain things, but that there is a kernel of truth in it.  All you are doing is saying that you quibble with the accuracy of an admittedly fictional account.  I don't see the big deal.

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You know this is kind of ironic, come to think of it.  You are on the record somewhere arguing that the Gospel of Thomas should be considered as on the par to the four Gospels.  But it is the Gospel of Thomas, with its gnostic tendencies, which argue that matter is evil and that our goal is to escape into the spiritual.  HDM is really rejecting and attacking Gnostic notions which Christianity would join him in rejecting.  Remember, Christianity believes that God created everything and called it 'good.'  Gnosticism is a heresy;  HDM presents it as the Christian position.

My position is that the Gospel of Thomas is as likely to be true as the NT gospels, which is to say, very unlikely.  Pullman, at least, has no pretensions over whether his book is fictional.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 02:43:08 AM by Copernicus »
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2007, 10:00:59 AM »

Let me see if I get this straight. Pullman and his series basicly advocate "If a room full of monkey's had enough time and resources they'd write Shakespeare." and is putting it on a cosmological level. Is that a fair summation?
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2007, 11:35:37 AM »

Hey, yea!  Not bad.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2007, 07:07:23 PM »

Sounds real silly on a variety of levels. The main one being that if I found a playwright on the ground the conclusion that it is written by one human author seems more...well...sane. I'd seriously like to see someone walk around advocating that monkey's wrote it and see the reactions people would give the guy. If something looks like it was made by some kind of intelligence the conclusion that an intelligence was behind it is the only reasonable conclusion.

Second point is that if his theory contends that everything can be reduced to a naturalistic universe then there should be evidence to empirically test that theory. That's what science does - empirically test material evidence to reach a conclusion. The fact that this conclusion is reached with no evidence thoroughly tested becomes less like science and more like question begging. How can someone take a theory that everything can be touched, tasted, heard, smelled, and/or seen seriously when nothing has been touched, tasted, heard, smelled, and/or seen to prove it?
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2007, 07:38:10 PM »

Well, you're preaching to the choir with me.  As you can see by Copernicus's comments above (he's one of our resident atheists) he is deeply uncomfortable with the multiverse.   It is the mainstream view these days whether he likes it or not.  It is mathematically sound so they say... the same math that gives us nuclear power and microwaves.  It is the end result of a scientific process that up to this point they didn't complain about. 

That said, I doubt Pullman necessarily 'believes' it.  It is consistent with his world view, though.  It gives him everything he wants... a sense of devotional awe in the face of the complexities of our universe and the ability to still blame 'God' for all the bad stuff that happens while denying that there is any kind of objective morality to decide what is 'bad.'  Its win-win-win for Pullman.

But he'd dump the multiverse the minute it got really uncomfortable, that's my view.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2007, 08:07:11 PM »

Well, you're preaching to the choir with me.  As you can see by Copernicus's comments above (he's one of our resident atheists) he is deeply uncomfortable with the multiverse...

No, I rather like the idea.  I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to describe it as a "mainstream theory".  It has not achieved the status of much other than scientific speculation.  The QM version is interesting, because it restores determinacy to the quantum level, something which free will advocates might find disheartening.  ;)

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...It is the mainstream view these days whether he likes it or not.  It is mathematically sound so they say... the same math that gives us nuclear power and microwaves.  It is the end result of a scientific process that up to this point they didn't complain about.

At best, it is a very popular idea, so I can go along with the claim that it is one of the "mainstream views" that physicists toss around.  Neither you nor I am qualified to judge the math.

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That said, I doubt Pullman necessarily 'believes' it.  It is consistent with his world view, though.  It gives him everything he wants... a sense of devotional awe in the face of the complexities of our universe and the ability to still blame 'God' for all the bad stuff that happens while denying that there is any kind of objective morality to decide what is 'bad.'  Its win-win-win for Pullman.

It is just a work of fiction.  The man is having fun with the idea that the RCC is basically corrupt and evil.  It was  that kind of theme that kicked off Protestantism.  Why do you have a problem with that? 

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But he'd dump the multiverse the minute it got really uncomfortable, that's my view.

It's a work of fiction!  He'll continue to publish these things as long as there is an audience for it.  Most of his audience is probably made up of Christians who enjoy the fantasy.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2007, 08:51:47 PM »

"Well, you're preaching to the choir with me.  As you can see by Copernicus's comments above (he's one of our resident atheists) he is deeply uncomfortable with the multiverse.   It is the mainstream view these days whether he likes it or not.  It is mathematically sound so they say... the same math that gives us nuclear power and microwaves.  It is the end result of a scientific process that up to this point they didn't complain about."

You mean the same mathematics that are themselves immaterial?

"That said, I doubt Pullman necessarily 'believes' it.  It is consistent with his world view, though.  It gives him everything he wants... a sense of devotional awe in the face of the complexities of our universe and the ability to still blame 'God' for all the bad stuff that happens while denying that there is any kind of objective morality to decide what is 'bad.'  Its win-win-win for Pullman."

I'm not that smart, but it all sounds way too contradicting to me.

"No, I rather like the idea.  I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to describe it as a "mainstream theory".  It has not achieved the status of much other than scientific speculation.  The QM version is interesting, because it restores determinacy to the quantum level, something which free will advocates might find disheartening."

You mean you're not making this very statement of your own accord?

"At best, it is a very popular idea, so I can go along with the claim that it is one of the "mainstream views" that physicists toss around.  Neither you nor I am qualified to judge the math."

Why must we limit ourselves to math in order to judge it? If the math seems to cross over into philosophical lines it can be reasonably uplifted or refuted with philosophical reasoning.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2007, 09:37:14 PM »

"No, I rather like the idea.  I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to describe it as a "mainstream theory"."

I think that you are importing a sense to 'theory' that I am not.  It is, as you say, a very popular idea and certainly, again as you say, one of the 'mainstream views' being tossed around.  What is a 'theory' in the more technical sense except a very popular idea among scientists?  In ultimate terms, that is.  I think this is an unnecessary quibbling.

"Neither you nor I am qualified to judge the math."

I wasn't trying to.  On the other hand, I, at least, am qualified to speak to the world view assumption that undergird the math.  Dunno about you.  ;)

"It is just a work of fiction.  The man is having fun with the idea that the RCC is basically corrupt and evil.  It was  that kind of theme that kicked off Protestantism.  Why do you have a problem with that?"

Consider this quote from Pullman:

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  Just a short walk away from the Pullmans' house is the grave of another Oxford master of fantasy: J.R.R. Tolkien. Comparisons, notes Pullman with a heavy sigh, are inevitable. There's the Oxford connection, and the invented worlds, and both Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" and "His Dark Materials" consist of one (very) long story in three volumes. But Pullman insists the similarities stop there. "What I'm doing is utterly different," he says. "Tolkien would have deplored it."

So, too, would have another famous Oxford fantasy writer, C.S. Lewis, a devout Christian whose children's series "The Chronicles of Narnia" exemplified his religious convictions. "I'm trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief," says Pullman. "Mr. Lewis would think I was doing the Devil's work."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23371-2001Feb18?language=printer

"I am trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."  says Pullman.

Maybe it isn't just a piece of fiction, after all.

"It's a work of fiction!  He'll continue to publish these things as long as there is an audience for it.  Most of his audience is probably made up of Christians who enjoy the fantasy."

"I am trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."

Your protestations raise an interesting question... just what WOULD a children's fantasy fiction book look like that really was trying to promote atheism and undermine Christian belief under your view, Cop?  How would it look different?

My objection is mainly this:  kids don't know their Christian theology very well to understand how bent Pullman's conception is.  Sadly, many adults don't either, and as you well know, I maintain that most atheists don't, too.  But at least adults have a 'fighting' chance, you might say.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2007, 02:02:18 AM »

"No, I rather like the idea.  I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to describe it as a "mainstream theory".  It has not achieved the status of much other than scientific speculation.  The QM version is interesting, because it restores determinacy to the quantum level, something which free will advocates might find disheartening."

You mean you're not making this very statement of your own accord?

Of who else's accord would I be making the statement?  Free will is compatible with determinism.  We can choose to do whatever we want, but we can't choose to want whatever we want.   [smile

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"At best, it is a very popular idea, so I can go along with the claim that it is one of the "mainstream views" that physicists toss around.  Neither you nor I am qualified to judge the math."

Why must we limit ourselves to math in order to judge it? If the math seems to cross over into philosophical lines it can be reasonably uplifted or refuted with philosophical reasoning.

Not knowing the math, we cannot judge how apt the metaphors are that physicists use to describe the math.  I don't think that sntjohnny has the slightest idea what he is speculating about.
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2007, 02:23:30 AM »

"No, I rather like the idea.  I am deeply uncomfortable with your attempts to describe it as a "mainstream theory"."

I think that you are importing a sense to 'theory' that I am not.  It is, as you say, a very popular idea and certainly, again as you say, one of the 'mainstream views' being tossed around.  What is a 'theory' in the more technical sense except a very popular idea among scientists?  In ultimate terms, that is.  I think this is an unnecessary quibbling.

Perhaps we are a pair of unnecessary quibblers.  ;)  Theories are rather well-understood sets of principles that make predictions.  They can be tested.  I may be wrong, but I don't think that anyone has yet found very good predictions that the multiple-world theory makes which distinguishes it from other hypotheses.  Hence, it isn't yet a theory.

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"Neither you nor I am qualified to judge the math."

I wasn't trying to.  On the other hand, I, at least, am qualified to speak to the world view assumption that undergird the math.  Dunno about you.  ;)

Sorry, but I don't think that you are knowledgeable enough about it to make the claims that you have been making.

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"I am trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief."  says Pullman.

So what?  It is still a good set of books for adolescents.  It raises a lot of issues, and I see nothing wrong with trying to undermine the basis of Christian belief.  I honestly doubt that his books will have much impact in that area.  Religious faith is declining among the youth for other reasons.  He is just part of a general phenomenon.

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Maybe it isn't just a piece of fiction, after all.

It is as fictional as the Narnia tales, and a lot more entertaining, as well.

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Your protestations raise an interesting question... just what WOULD a children's fantasy fiction book look like that really was trying to promote atheism and undermine Christian belief under your view, Cop?  How would it look different?

This is a book for adolescents, not really young children.  I don't deny that Pullman has his perspective, but the books themselves don't really do much to undermine Christian beliefs or promote atheism.  Indeed, you can't be an atheist if you buy the book's premise that God exists, albeit not the kind of God that Christians worship.  As for pro-atheist children's literature, I've seen it before in Soviet Russian publications.  It was silly and ineffective stuff, and I don't really think that didactic literature of that sort works at all well.  Children need to be taught to think critically, and that means exposure to a wide variety of ideas and beliefs.

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My objection is mainly this:  kids don't know their Christian theology very well to understand how bent Pullman's conception is.  Sadly, many adults don't either, and as you well know, I maintain that most atheists don't, too.  But at least adults have a 'fighting' chance, you might say.

Now you don't really expect me to have any sympathy for your concern, do you?  Kids are indoctrinated in the Christian belief system from birth into adulthood.  You folks get plenty of time with them, and you still complain that Pullman's book is an undue influence on them.  Give me a break!
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 02:32:23 AM by Copernicus »
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