You seem to equate the economic success of 1st world nations to christianity.  Sounds like a 'post hoc, ergo propter hoc' argument to me, i.e., "after this therefore because of this". This describes a fallacy. An author commits a fallacy when it is assumed that because one thing follows another that the one thing was caused by the other.

I was not saying that the rest of the world was not corrupt or messed up, but throwing another troubled religion into the mix is not helpful.  Atheism would be the most peaceful path for mankind to take.  Without the chains of archaic religious texts that only hold society back, we would be far better off.  Without the religious clashes in all parts of the world, we would be better off.  Religion en masse, historically, has PROVEN this.  You even gave great examples of it.  I have no problems with establishing legal/moral/social values, but don't base them on a ficticious character who 'lived' 2000 years ago.  Society then was much more harsh and difficult than it is now.  If you want to live by the bible, do so completely (slavery, incest, wars etc.); if not, accept it as a simple, poorly written and contradictory story and move on.  Mankind did not stop evolving 2000 years ago, why should our morality or our sense of right and wrong? Don't tell me that those definitions don't change because slavery was accepted in society up until only recently (evolutionarily speaking).  In fact it went hand in hand with christianity (ouch).

Societies are corrput with or without a gods word.  If you don't see corrpution of biblical proportions in your own religion, heaven help you!  

I am not condeming all of christianity for a few bad apples, as I said, some people are corrupt anyway.  But god doesn't JUST teach those traits.  The bible is rife with all sorts of immoral things, and therefore it is not a good example of morality.  Just like me writing a grammar book...not the best example of what should be done.  

What I have a problem with is that religion is taken as fact, when it is, AT BEST, urban legend.  You cannot have a million and one interpretations of god and expect peace in our lifetimes.  Believe what you like in your own homes/churches/schools.  Fine by me, pay for them youselves, do what you like.  But don't allow your personal opinions into your role as a govermental agency.  Don't tell me abortion is wrong, that is a normative statement which I do not recognize.  Is it safe?  Yes.  Can it be done by qualified doctors?  Yes.  Sign me up then. (this is not an attempt to start an abortion debate, the same can be said for assisted suicide, simply an example of diametrically opposed belief systems)

Atheism does not promote any particular lifestyle or belief, just that we don't believe in anything that is not supportable by our own senses or is not scientifically verifiable.  The universe is simply a sum of its parts, nothing more, nothing less.

You asked "Does the hypocrisy of the followers negate the message?"  Rather, does the message change when you ignore half of it?  Why can you selectively choose which laws of god you will follow and turn aroud and foist other beliefs on society as unchanging moral imperatives?  

Pursuing truth?  Is this some episode of the X-files?  The truth is what is verifiable/supportable/believable, without the need for indoctrination.  You believe that it is more likely that a supernatural, unseen, omnipotent, omniscient being is looking after us rather than believe the universe is just here because it is.  The truth is that the only logical position one can begin a quest for knowlegde from must be from a position of scepticism, requiring proof of all beliefs.  I believe in gravity because it is testable and verifiable.  I can also see it's results on the world around me.  I don't attribute it to a mystical power; it has an explanation.  Earthquakes are not the lord being angry and shaking on the earths pillars, we know they are giant plates smushing into one another.  That explanation is testable and verifiable.  The list of testable and verifiable phenomenon could go on, and as science provides explanations for more and more, that list will grow until one day, all attributes associated with your god will be explained.  Then what?

Don't focus only on the good parts, that's easy.  Focus on the whole picture and what will be revealed is not the lovely picture of a benevolent saviour, but he will be seen as he really is, a manmade caricature of what we desire in our fellow man.  The truth will set you free, indeed.

Antithetical

Gagezilla,

I try to make clear my position, but alas, I guess I have missed the mark again. My bad.

Let me clear up where I failed to explain myself and we can continue from there.

I do seek to exclude ALL religious 'values' because they are based on an archaic text which has no relevance in our modern day lives.  I would suggest that you try to understand the difference between your "thou shalt not kill" as a christian value and "murder is wrong" from an atheist standpoint.  These are not the same. I don't kill my fellow citizens because the bible tells me so, I don't kill because it is just wrong in society to do that. Christians tend to imply that values themselves were created by their religion.  Killing has been considered wrong in every religion/sopciety, long pre-dating christianity.  Chrisitanity didn't invent morallity, and my point was that your bible is a poor example of morality with its 100s of examples of a 'god' committing/condoning immorality.

Don't confuse my desire for abortion with a womans legal right to have one.  As I said I don't intend to begin a debate on abortion.  I simply stated that if it is a safe medical procedure (which it is) and can be performed by willing doctors (which it can) then it should be allowed, and my or your personal opinions are irrelevant in a womans decision.  I believe you are free to make a choice about having a baby, commiting suicide, having liposuction or having a mole removed. Science has made it possible, you choose what you believe is right for you, but don't tell me its wrong.

I would posit that you don't see the bible for what it is, you see it as you have been brought up to believe it is (programmed).  So you see the bible and believe it to be followed.  Great, so you do believe a fetus less than one month old is worthless, slavery is a good thing, sleeping with your daughters and impregnating them is cool, genocide, kidnapping, murdering, stoning misbehaving children, drowning innocent animals and children, forcing a man to bang his sister-in-law...etc etc etc; these are noble attributes of something you wish to continue in socitey?  Yikes.  I think I will avoid Texas then.

Economic decisions are included in your examples, you may just not realize it.  Speaking from the richest nation on earth it's easy to forget that the majority of the world is incredibly poor, and desperate times do call for desperate measures.  

Africa suffers terribly from AIDS, famine, war lords vie for power and commit horrific genocide. Corruption is rampant.  This is a combination of extreme poverty and, alas, christianity (no condoms, yeah!!!)

-Asia- North Korea, China, human rights nightmares. Intolerance, indoctrination by the state, intimidation and corruption. A political system in crisis, caused by or merely exacerbated by extremely poor economic conditions.  You are hardly in a position to site intolerance and indoctrination, something about a pot and a kettle...

-Former Soviet Union - Russian mafia and lack of coherrent infrastructure wracks fledgling democracy, poverty and prison system nightmares.  You don't think this has money written all over it?

-Middle East bloodshed between Palestine, Israel. Saddam's human rights abominations in Iraq. Continued support for civilian casualties by radical muslim groups through terrorism. Gee, Iraq doesn't have anything of value, does it?  Who is being naive if they don't see the US involvement in Kuwait and Iraq had oil as a motive.  Conspiracy theories aside, there are plenty of African nations with dictatorships and therein brutality abounds, but the US sits on the sidelines because of monetary considerations.  I would suggest reading "A peoples history of the United States" to get some facts outside of the mainstream newspapers.

Sorry I missed your previous post you referenced, can't comment therefore.

Horse puckey aside, I personally do have values which I follow, yes.  I don't speak for other atheists though.  I am not reading from the atheist bible and condeming others to hell because of their free thoughts, unlike Snt Johnny.  

HIDE behind science and logic?  Did you honestly write that?  We are all here because of science and logic.  Without science, we are still in caves my friend.  How can you logically explain why you would put your 'faith' in something you can't see when science works everyday in front of our eyes.  Are my personal values adjusted because of science, I guess a little.  As each new treatment for one of 'gods' malladies is discovered, I appreciate science more and more, and see it as one more nail in the coffin of a long overdue burial for a patheitc religious hegemony.  

If I implied that I had all the answers, then I was WAY off the mark in communicating with you, sorry again.  But I do look to science and logic for answering lifes problems because it has proven time and again to be the ONLY proven method to better ones life.  By the way, for the average christian, their value system DOES in fact decieve you into believing you have all the answers!  When the bible can be used directly, it is used as inerrant "gods law" and when it can't, it is "gods will".  Conveniently slippery.

My "haze of hatred" is not focused directly on you, nor on christians.  It is there as a defense against any religion forcing it's silly beliefs on any part of my life.  Give me science and logic, not voodoo chants or "power of prayer" malarkey.  Given only one choice where do you turn when you have cancer, a church or chemotherapy?  My guess is that you would put your life in a human doctor 100 times out of 100.  If you say otherwise you are a fool or a liar.

I am far from alturistic, in fact as I stated earlier, I am selfish and typically do what is in my best interests (as do you and everyone else reading this post).  Somehow negating religion in the world is not just in my best interest (although it is that too), it is in everyone's best interest.

Antithetical

AT-

Christians also believe that murder is wrong- not because the bible says so, in addition to the bible saying so.  We don't differ MUCH on this point.
Other than the slanderous jabs you throw at God- man, such anger at him.  For your sake, I kinda hope He doesn't exist...

Christians tend to imply that values themselves were created by their religion

No, by God.  

My father once told me, "don't get religion, get God."  How right he was.  I actually agree with some of the things you have said, as they pertain to all religions.  Religion for the sake of the traditions of religion, IMO, are bad news.  The great news of God gets lost in the heap, and the good intentions get corrupted.  Man's involvement just seems to muck things up.

Science has made it possible, you choose what you believe is right for you, but don't tell me its wrong.

It has also made cloning and the death penalty ever so efficient.  They all carry more issues with them than you allude- they carry MORAL and ETHICAL issues.  Be careful in the "if it's possible, do it" mentality.  You may slip into the quagmire of "what's good for me is good."  Tell that to someone who just had their car stolen.  

You also dismiss the all important issue of the life of the child.  As one who has educational background in embryology, it is inconceivable to me that anyone would argue that the child, in utero, is not actually a child.  This concept follows the line of those that feel it is reasonable to kill children up to three weeks old, because they have not been "imprinted" yet.  Holy cow, Batman.  It's wrong for the same reason murder is wrong.  You are taking another's life forcefully.  Period.

I would posit that you don't see the bible for what it is, you see it as you have been brought up to believe it is (programmed).

That may be your theory, but then you don't know me well enough to know, do you?  Do you know my educational background?  Did you watch me grow up?  Did I faithfully attend church?  Do you know my choices of reading material?  How much do I read?  Am I a gullible person?   I think you lack the knowledge to alledge such garbage.

So you see the bible and believe it to be followed. Great, so you do believe a fetus less than one month old is worthless, slavery is a good thing, sleeping with your daughters and impregnating them is cool, genocide, kidnapping, murdering, stoning misbehaving children, drowning innocent animals and children, forcing a man to bang his sister-in-law...etc etc etc; these are noble attributes of something you wish to continue in socitey?

  .  Followers of Jesus Christ advocate no such thing.  Man, you are way off.  These are not noble, and you have created an interesting list of atrocities to choose from.  Seems to speak to my theory that people act like people regardless of religion (as many groups of people illustrated in the Bible are not all Israelites/Followers of Christ.  Got any NT atrocities we supposedly advocate?

Avoid Texas if you want, everything's bigger in Texas.  We also say Don't Mess with Texas.

it's easy to forget that the majority of the world is incredibly poor, and desperate times do call for desperate measures.

You assume I had forgotten.  As a christian who travels on mission trips, I am well aware of the poverty level of the world's nations.  Desparate times do call for desparate measures- my point exactly.  They will do what they have to do to survive!  This has nothing to do with christianity!  It is survival!  Don't blame christianity for the woes of the world, the world is doing fine on it's own.  And all I encounter is thankfullness from those we visit, as they see we are there to help them in practical ways.  What are you doing personally, in say, Honduras?  Africa?  

Christians don't advocate the use of condoms in Africa?  What?  This is one of the best ways (next to education) that can prevent the spread!  As a christian, I see no problem with this.  I may not personally believe in premarital sex, but come on!  You seem to alledge that christians are impractical due to their beliefs.  You're going to have to do better than that.  There are plenty of christian doctors that are practical enough to hit the problem head on despite their personal beliefs.  

Asia- North Korea, China, human rights nightmares. Intolerance, indoctrination by the state, intimidation and corruption. A political system in crisis, caused by or merely exacerbated by extremely poor economic conditions.

A system comprised of?

People.  And most of them are not christians.  Hmmmm...

Former Soviet Union - Russian mafia and lack of coherrent infrastructure wracks fledgling democracy, poverty and prison system nightmares. You don't think this has money written all over it?

Money, for whom?

People.  Certain people.  Acting like people.  For the love of mammon (money).  Hmmm...

I am not reading from the atheist bible and condeming others to hell because of their free thoughts, unlike Snt Johnny.

I am glad you have your own views.  I am also glad I'm not forced to share them.  God condemns those that have chosen themselves over Him, SntJohnny has nothing to do with it.  Something about murder being wrong, not killing the messenger...

As each new treatment for one of 'gods' malladies is discovered, I appreciate science more and more, and see it as one more nail in the coffin of a long overdue burial for a patheitc religious hegemony

.

We differ here.  I see the corruption of nature in our transgression.  We brought this on ourselves, let's be man enough to deal with the consequences.  God is gracious enough to provide us with intelligence, so that we may further scientific discoveries that can correct some of these abnormalities.  I appreciate them, too, although not for the venomous reason you do.

By the way, for the average christian, their value system DOES in fact decieve you into believing you have all the answers!

That's funny.  My God let's me know as a human, I lack the ability to know all the answers.  God knows everything, but we don't presume to know it all.  I guess in saying that, I lack the proper programming.  Maybe I need to be reformatted?

My "haze of hatred" is not focused directly on you, nor on christians. It is there as a defense against any religion forcing it's silly beliefs on any part of my life. Give me science and logic, not voodoo chants or "power of prayer" malarkey. Given only one choice where do you turn when you have cancer, a church or chemotherapy? My guess is that you would put your life in a human doctor 100 times out of 100.

But it seems to spill over from God to his followers, do you not see this?  Why do you see a need for "protection" against God?  That it might somehow turn you stupid?  I am confident that you would lose nothing in the translation, just gain a passion for His plan in your life.  (Of which, consequently, you are a part of in your current state anyway.)  And regarding cancer, you again assert that christians are impractical.  Of course I would seek medical treatment for an ailment.  God can heal miraculously if He so chooses, but he also calls me to use my head- For goodness sakes...

I am far from alturistic, in fact as I stated earlier, I am selfish and typically do what is in my best interests (as do you and everyone else reading this post). Somehow negating religion in the world is not just in my best interest (although it is that too), it is in everyone's best interest

.

Appreciate your honesty.  Not all of us act in our best interest, as you assert.  Can you explain why people run into burning buildings to save those inside?  Why do people jump into raging flood waters to save children, even animals?  I promise you those moves were not in their best interest, yet they do it!  Some of us actually look outside of self, and as such are necessary additions for the common good.  That golden rule is looking better and better...

Appreciate your honesty. Not all of us act in our best interest, as you assert. Can you explain why people run into burning buildings to save those inside? Why do people jump into raging flood waters to save children, even animals? I promise you those moves were not in their best interest, yet they do it! Some of us actually look outside of self, and as such are necessary additions for the common good. That golden rule is looking better and better...

Depending on how you define best interest; it could be in their best interest.

AT-

Sorry for the continuation, but the staff gets upset when I tie up their lines...

Oh wait; those aren

Actually, the ten commandments were written verbatum in the egyptian book of the dead long before moses. The crazy and brutal laws were( the other 620) given straight to moses from god. Its funny to hear people say that morals came from god whe what they really mean is that morals came from "my god".

Yes. Nothing funny about it.

But, I think its a mistake to assume that all 'belivers' in a religion are saying that morals came 'from my God' when the say 'from God'.
So, It would be refreshing and informative for those that mean 'from my God', to say it. It woud cirtainly fill me in about the speaker or writer.

And I like the way 'My God' sounds too.

can't say I'd change my daily routine if I found that out, I'd just kind of nod my head and be like 'yup, whats new?'

Speak for yourself! I can say with absolute certainty I will be going somewhere really cool when I die!

I've arranged for my body to be shipped to Bangkok Thailand for burial! That's a really cool place!