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Zane

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« on: April 01, 2005, 01:46:37 AM »

A while back I met a very wise and knowledgable man whom I am glad to now call "friend." When we met he asked me a very important question that I now ask others every chance I get. The question goes as follows: "If you were to wake up tomarrow morning and know without a doubt, beyond all reason or belief, that there was no God... there was no Satan, no heven, no hell, no reward or persicution for your actions here on Earth, none of it, none of it was real. Would it change the way you behave and function in daily life?

Please every one respond to this I am eager to hear what you have to say. And don't just say yes or no tell me why as well.

P.S. I am going to post this around the Forum so if you see it agian do be alarmed.
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Elisha

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2005, 02:36:33 AM »

Yes, definitely!

If I knew with 100% certainty that there was no God, then I would probably be in a very depressed state.  I couldn't be one of those people who abide by the "life is a party, so live it up and get the most out of it" principle (it's like forcing a mirage onto yourself; I.E. intentionally residing in the Matrix).

I would know that there is no ultimate/actual/objectively true purpose in life.  I would know that  no objective moral values exist.  What would be the point in living?  We would be luckily existent beings who had no true reason to live.  Life would be merely a pointless, slow walk into nothing.  Not very inviting.
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Gagezilla

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2005, 10:38:37 AM »

Elisha-

That was depressing...

I find it interesting that we have actual people with the belief cited above, and yet they are not depressed- at least not that they will admit to.  The statistics regarding prescriptions for anti-depressants are on the rise though, you would be blown away by the actual hard numbers of filled prescriptions for Zantac, Prozac, etc.  A LOT of people take them, so maybe your assessment is more on the money than others like to admit...
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Copernicus

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2005, 02:00:02 PM »

As an atheist, I have no trouble answering the question.  I would have no reason to change my behavior, since that is what I already believe.  :-)  

Gagezilla is right about depression.  Most atheists appear to be no more depressed (or happier) than others.  Elisha's reaction is typical of most people, and I think that it is a powerful argument for driving people away from atheism.  Throughout our childhoods, most of us were indoctrinated in traditional religious beliefs.  Religion allows us to rationalize our moral behavior and to cope with life's tragedies.  It can be a substitute for the drugs that gagezilla mentioned, although I'm not sure how effective it is at curing depression.  I think that religious people sometimes feel that God is against them, driving them futher downward in the spiral of depression.  The best thing to do when you experience depression is to take one of the serotonin reuptake inhibitors (prozac, zoloft, etc.) under a doctor's care.  They really do work.

The point is that atheism does not provide an alternative to the coping mechanism that religion provides.  It does not offer the social support infrastructure that churches and temples do. There is no longer that internal companion with whom to carry on a dialogue.  People who lose religion have a serious crisis to deal with.  How does one cope with life when the religious palliatives are gone?

Most atheists do develop coping mechanisms to compensate for the loss of religion, but it takes some time for that to happen.  Having been an atheist for about 40 years now, I have learned to accept the fact that my lifespan is fundamentally limited and that bad things are inevitably going to happen to me.  In some ways, I feel that not having raised expectations helps me to get through the rough periods.  God isn't there to help, but he isn't there to hinder, either.  Sometimes religious folks fantasize that atheism drives one into a state of hedonism, but that isn't true either.  One's lifestyle doesn't really change very much when one deconverts from religion.
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Elisha

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2005, 02:16:47 PM »

So, your answer to the question is a criticism of religion?
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Copernicus

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« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2005, 02:55:25 PM »

Quote from: Elisha
So, your answer to the question is a criticism of religion?


As much as yours was a criticism of atheism, I suppose.   :roll:  Actually, not everything I said about religion was a criticism.  I think that it serves as a coping mechanism.  People feel that they need it in order to face the trials and tribulations of life.  I'd certainly recommend it over booze.  ;-)
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Elisha

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2005, 03:19:17 PM »

I didn't criticize atheism, but criticized a belief I typed what belief I would have if God didn't exist.

Your off-subject rants on coping mechanisms are subjective at best, though.
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Copernicus

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2005, 07:44:15 PM »

Quote from: Elisha
I didn't criticize atheism, but criticized a belief I typed what belief I would have if God didn't exist.


You responded with how you would behave if you woke up to discover that atheism were factually correct.  Putting yourself in atheist shoes, you had nothing good to say.  By way of contrast, I actually said some positive things about religion--that it is a good coping mechanism.

Quote
Your off-subject rants on coping mechanisms are subjective at best, though.


Unlike you, I have never tried to claim that my opinions represented factual knowledge.  ;-)
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Elisha

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2005, 08:31:50 PM »

I thought I said something good... more than good.  What I typed is demonstrably correct.  Heh... It's Elisha's way or the highway.

-Eli
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FUSSCCJ

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2005, 09:04:31 AM »

So back on topic...I think such a situation would change me, but I think it would happen slowly.  The way I currently look at life revolves around religion and even if we took religion out right away its influence on other aspects would still be large.  It would take awhile to allow those other aspects (my morality, concepts of justice, political beliefs, and how to spend my time) to change, and I'm not sure exactly what I'd come up with.  I'm certainly not sure I'd be depressed.  Certainly it would be a let down, but I've gotten to a point in life where I try to accept things I cannot change.  If there's no God that's not something I can change, so I would just need to go on living, although I can see myself finding life a bit less fulfilling.
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2005, 09:21:18 AM »

I would become a rabid hedonist without hesitation.
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Zane

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2005, 03:58:32 PM »

First things first I would like to thank everyone for their meaningful responses, even if we did get a little off subject. Secondly and most regetable I must ask what a hedonist is, because this is the second time I have seen the word in this forum and unfortunately have no idea what it means. Now I must address the responses themselves. To thoes of you who said you would change then I feel an incredible swell of pity for you. Because you are truly slaves by you're own choosing. You just openly admitted to not being in control of your own lives but simply acting the way you act because you are told that if you don't then you are going to have eternal d--nation, and you accept that and live your life accordenly living to serve someone who you only believe exists and you continue to be his slave freely and willingly. I truly hope that some day you wake up and realize that God shouldn't do that to you but you should be able to be yourself beside him not under him.
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The Perfect slave is the one who believes he is free
Laugh and grow fat - Fatman
Reach out and touch faith - Marilyn Manson
Responsibility to the responsible - Satan
Don't worry even if things end up a bit to heavy we'll all float on - Modest Mouse
Isolation is the oxygen mask you make your children breath in to survive - Marilyn Manson
The university of Cincinnati: where your dreams go to die. - The Sasquatch

Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2005, 04:23:01 PM »

In other words, you think we should be hedonists.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hedonist

I would disagree with your analysis on many levels.  One of the main ones is your assessment that you pity people who's behavior would change if their beliefs about the world change.  I would suggest that if a person's beliefs about the world do not affect the way that they live- if falsified or if verified- their beliefs about the world are probably meaningless.

If beliefs have no effect on actions then beliefs are unimportant.   Any attempt to give beliefs importance requires some effect on actions, even if only by the fact that a change in our attitude effects those actions.

Example.

My dear friend Dannyboy believes that macro-evolution is true, but that belief has absolutely no impact on the way that he treats people.  In fact, he treats people pretty good, but he would never seek an evolutionary explanation for the reason he treats people.   He believes that his view is right but that view is meaningless except as it serves the purpose of falsifying some of my own views.  Except for that, his belief is meaningless, even to him.  

I for one have little use for beliefs that have no touchstone in reality.  If I believed, as DB does, that we evolved, I for one would ACT like we evolved.  Survival of the fittest, baby.

You seem to be saying, "Reject theism, because then you can be an atheist and then your belief that there is no God will make no difference in your life!"

Sign me up, man, I'm sold.  ;)
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Copernicus

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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2005, 06:56:39 PM »

Quote from: Zane
Secondly and most regetable I must ask what a hedonist is, because this is the second time I have seen the word in this forum and unfortunately have no idea what it means.


Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure for its own sake.  Atheists are often accused of hedonism by religious people.  It is considered bad, because hedonism is thought to lead to extreme selfish or self-centered behavior.  Religious morality is felt necessary to promote responsible, even altruistic, forms of behavior that benefit society at large.  It keeps our otherwise natural tendency towards selfish hedonism in check.

It is worth noting that epicureanism is often taken as a synonym for hedonism, and the Hellenic philosopher, Epicurus, was known for his materialist atheist philosophy.  But Epicurus thought that one could only be happy by moderating the desires and losing one's fear of death.  In my experience, atheists do not appear any more self-centered or selfish than those of religious faith.  Most people, whether religious or not, have a wide variety of conflicting desires to deal with.  Like Epicurus, they don't jump headlong into an orgy of self-destructive hedonism just because they lose their fear of God's retribution.  Civil and social retribution, both worldly concerns, seem to provide enough incentive to curb one's wilder emotions.

Quote
Now I must address the responses themselves. To thoes of you who said you would change then I feel an incredible swell of pity for you. Because you are truly slaves by you're own choosing. You just openly admitted to not being in control of your own lives but simply acting the way you act because you are told that if you don't then you are going to have eternal d--nation, and you accept that and live your life accordenly living to serve someone who you only believe exists and you continue to be his slave freely and willingly. I truly hope that some day you wake up and realize that God shouldn't do that to you but you should be able to be yourself beside him not under him.


I have often expressed similar sentiments.  I think that there is great irony in the fact that conventional Christians rely on the doctrine of free will to justify God's lack of tangible presence in our daily lives.  Yet they argue that we should feel deeply constrained by fear of divine retribution, and the heaven they seek will have their God looking over their shoulders at all times.  After the briefest of tastes, they experience an eternal theft of their precious gift of free will.
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Harry_is_always_right

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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2005, 07:04:15 PM »

Quote from: Gagezilla
Elisha-

That was depressing...

I find it interesting that we have actual people with the belief cited above, and yet they are not depressed- at least not that they will admit to.  The statistics regarding prescriptions for anti-depressants are on the rise though, you would be blown away by the actual hard numbers of filled prescriptions for Zantac, Prozac, etc.  A LOT of people take them, so maybe your assessment is more on the money than others like to admit...
The truth hurts. But seriously, the phrase opiate of the masses, definately springs to mind.

In short my life would change little, aside from probably being less reserved and more pissed off with theists.

I am an atheist. I am very happy. I work in conjuction with Oxfam.

This idea that says that atheism breeds selfishness is disgusting. It breeds selfishness from selfish people perhaps, but if you're actually a nice person, then it only helps you. You can look at helping people on a pratical level and not be stopped by archaic dogmatism.

Let's ban contraception, that'll solve LOADS of problems  :roll:

I find atheism very lovely. I help people because I want to. I help people because ending suffering is right and also makes me happy, not because i'm scared of what will happen to me if i don't. So i'm sorted. If there IS a god heaven for me because i like helping people. If there isn't i've had a happy life and goodo. And if there is a god, but he places faith above action, then he's an egotystical <insert derogatory swear word> and being in his heaven would make me feel sick anyway.
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2005, 08:46:40 PM »

Good news, HarryRight.

Hell was created just for people like you.  You would rather not be in heaven because of the terms that God has laid out- that is exactly the purpose of hell.  People who think that God sends people to hell as some sort of punishment are only right in a limited sense.  Its more accurate to say that people prefer an existence apart from God, and God makes this possible:  Hell.  God doesn't send people to 'Hell' so much as he grants people their wish to exist apart from him.   Ah, but you can't please some atheists.  Some atheist will now insist that a loving God would force them to exist with him.

Anyway, your premise is donkey-backwards anyway.  As should be obvious from even a cursory look at Christianity and its teachings, faith and actions are integrally connected.   Look at the book of James, for example.   So you are all [expletive deleted] bent out of shape for no reason.  ;)

About hedonism- it was not my intention to say that atheists have to be hedonists.  I only said that if I personally were to be convinced that there was no God, I personally would be a hedonist.  And its true that being a hedonist does not necessarily mean being cruelly selfish.  However, being the brave and courageous atheist that I would be, I would admit that there is no such thing as a real good- 'good' is merely an arbitrary view of my own.  And so I would be cruelly selfish, because 'cruelly' would not be a meaningful term, and I shouldn't care what anyone thinks as I rape, pillage, and otherwise take over the world.   If they don't like it, they could stop me.  With a gun.  Because an argument would not be compelling reason if it is true that I knew without a doubt that there was no God.

I should be nice because you want me too?  Step aside panzy coward.  ;)  

You may not have a similar view, but hey, without any objective truth, its all relative, right?   On what grounds would you say I'm wrong?  At anyrate, I wouldn't care what you did say.

I think that HarryRight let's the cat out of the bag, though.  It would be pretty difficult to positively conclude that there was no God while the great mass of humanity is running around operating on the principle that there is  'good.'   HarryRight does good things because it makes him feel good, which is not an altogether bad reason.  But why should it make him feel good at all?  Why should it make him feel anything?  

That he feels any sense at all to 'do good' is at all- along with the rest of humanity, even the atheist- will always be to some degree a cause for examination of the question of 'God.'  Thus, this sense would always stand in contrast to any fully positive knowledge that there isn't a God.  

Of course, take that sense away, or render it fully arbitrary or what not, and we are back to full out bloody hedonism of the sort that I would prefer.  Again, not saying that all atheists would choose that.  Only the brave ones.  ;)
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2005, 07:22:55 AM »

So an urge to do good is because a god exists? But then some people don't help others. So that can't be the reason.
Also, it's very easy for you to say you would rape and pillage if you were an atheist, but i get the feeling you're just trying to prove a point. Do you really think you could force a man/woman to have sex against their will? Surely if the only thing stopping you doing that, is that you're scared what god would say, he's onto you and knows you desire rape anyway, so you'll be down in hell with me, only i'll be glad and you'll be annoyed.

What gets me is all these atrocities, of which i can't be bothered listing, don't convince any christian to realise that if their god does exist, he's a really bad person/thing and what would one want to do with him/her/it anyway? I guess it's either ignorance, or maybe you actually are all so self centred that you don't care what dark evil monstrosity you're working for, you just want the goodies for yourself at the end.
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Zane

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2005, 12:47:23 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
If beliefs have no effect on actions then beliefs are unimportant.   Any attempt to give beliefs importance requires some effect on actions, even if only by the fact that a change in our attitude effects those actions.

You seem to be saying, "Reject theism, because then you can be an atheist and then your belief that there is no God will make no difference in your life!"

Sign me up, man, I'm sold.  ;)


I'm sorry SJ I didn't mean to come across like that. I am not saying that beliefs have no affect on action because my beliefs affect every action I make.

For example:

I see am man walking down the street carying a bag of groceries. He trips and the bag falls and spills.
I would stop to help him not because I feel that God would shine his praise on me but because that man would shine his praise on me. Then that man, who moments ago was a complete stranger, now enjoys the fact that I even exist which in turn makes me happy.

Quote from: sntjohnny
Example.

My dear friend Dannyboy believes that macro-evolution is true, but that belief has absolutely no impact on the way that he treats people.  In fact, he treats people pretty good, but he would never seek an evolutionary explanation for the reason he treats people.   He believes that his view is right but that view is meaningless except as it serves the purpose of falsifying some of my own views.  Except for that, his belief is meaningless, even to him.  

I for one have little use for beliefs that have no touchstone in reality.  If I believed, as DB does, that we evolved, I for one would ACT like we evolved.  Survival of the fittest, baby.


Im sorry to say SJ but if you are going to make an example you should make it more meaningful. I am glad to know that DB treates everyone nicely, but saying that he does that in spite of the fact that he believes in macro-evolution makes no sense. I dont treat people differently because of something that has no relevence in the conversation. For instance if persay I too believed in macro-evolution and I was talking to someone about what they did last week I would not bring up the fact that the only reason that they had that last week at all was because of monkies millions of years ago. No I would say "hey man that would be pretty freakin' sweet" or something that had more relevence to the topic at hand.
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The Perfect slave is the one who believes he is free
Laugh and grow fat - Fatman
Reach out and touch faith - Marilyn Manson
Responsibility to the responsible - Satan
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Isolation is the oxygen mask you make your children breath in to survive - Marilyn Manson
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FUSSCCJ

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A question every theist and atheist should ask themselves
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2005, 04:46:43 PM »

Note on Hedonism

It's not neccesarily a bad thing.  For example, Plato thought a hedonist world would be the perfect world IF everyone could see things in perspective of their entire lives (long-term pleasure).  Humans, however, do not seem to have this ability.  I guess in theory I agree with Plato and that's part of the reason I'm uncertain how significant the changes to my life would be in the hypothetical situation you gave, Zane.  The problem is, if we think in human terms of being selfish we tend not to get to the point where we fully understand that true selfishness would be complete unselfishness (might want to read that one over again).  To overcome that problem we attempt to be unselfish or selfless (not hedonistic).  What would change would be my understanding of how things work, the Christian mechanics of the world (i.e. Good only comes from God).
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Antithetical

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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2005, 07:01:04 PM »

Firstly, I know it wouldn
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