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Anthony Horvath

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Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« on: August 06, 2009, 12:00:14 AM »

Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
      


But imagine my surprise when I read that I am not the only person wondering about Rowling's motives and speculating that perhaps it was just to rile up a certain segment of the population.  None other then Daniel Radcliffe himself, the actor who plays Harry Potter in the movies, said,

"I think it's wonderful that Dumbledore was outed as gay … Half of me thinks Rowling just did that to see if she could p*ss off the right-wing, but I'm not sure how true that is. I think she had it planned, I think she always knew he was gay."
         

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Dannyboy

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2009, 09:37:09 AM »

Why does it even matter?  If she released this information to rile up the Christian Right (who, let's face it, were never big Harry Potter fans to begin with) then any success she had in doing so only makes the Christian Right look petty and reactionary.

Why is it a problem to learn, as an incidental biographical detail, that a fictional character who exemplifies various noble virtues was conceived of by the author as being homosexual?  The reaction seems disproportionate, given that the most anyone could take from this is that Homosexuals are sometimes good people.  Is anyone with half a brain denying this?

Even if you think homosexuality is wrong, i still dont see the problem.  Gandalf was a smoker.  So what?
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stathei

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 11:05:15 PM »

Good point. Why, exactly, do you care about this, SJ?
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End Bringer

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2009, 02:10:59 PM »

Why does it even matter?  If she released this information to rile up the Christian Right (who, let's face it, were never big Harry Potter fans to begin with) then any success she had in doing so only makes the Christian Right look petty and reactionary.

Or alternatively she looks petty and reactionary for releasing such info only for the express purpose of riling up people who've criticized her.

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Why is it a problem to learn, as an incidental biographical detail, that a fictional character who exemplifies various noble virtues was conceived of by the author as being homosexual?  The reaction seems disproportionate, given that the most anyone could take from this is that Homosexuals are sometimes good people.  Is anyone with half a brain denying this?

It's not so much a "problem" as a bewilderment in that the entire portrayal of the character, his sexual orientation doesn't come up at all. If it was such an important fact it should have been more explicit in the books; if it wasn't then Rowling could have just let people think and speculate what they may (personally I find the best stories intentionally leave gaps to be filled in by the reader). So SJ is perfectly reasonable to ask - why decide on this fact and put it out there? Not like asking for the author's motives is ever suspect when about every other element of story telling.

Or let's put it this way - If Rowling was asked why she decided to have a male protagonist, and she answered that Harry was originally born a girl, but the parents turned "her" into a boy by use of magic (nothing like a good deus ex machina) and nothing of this was indicated in the story or has any impact on the plot or character interaction, would you honestly say there was absolutely nothing about this that would make people scratch their heads, and criticise those who ask further about this as "antifemminist"?

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Even if you think homosexuality is wrong, i still dont see the problem.  Gandalf was a smoker.  So what?

I didn't know the dangers of smoking was fully known in Tolkien's day.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 02:25:02 PM by End Bringer »
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Dannyboy

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2009, 02:33:54 PM »

EB,

"Why does it even matter?  If she released this information to rile up the Christian Right (who, let's face it, were never big Harry Potter fans to begin with) then any success she had in doing so only makes the Christian Right look petty and reactionary."

Or alternatively she looks petty and reactionary for releasing such info only for the express purpose of riling up people who've criticized her.


It isn't possible to judge her purpose, unless it is by the unreliable method of appealing to our own preconceived ideas on the subject.  Notice i said "If" before.  i have no idea what her purpose was, nor do i particularly care.  If it was bait, a lot of people have been fooled by their prejudices into taking it.  If it wasn't, then the same people look foolish.  

It's not so much a "problem" as a bewilderment in that the entire portrayal of the character, his sexual orientation doesn't come up at all.

He's an old man in the books.  Sexuality is expressed in more subtle ways as we get older, and not in ways which would be relevant to a mentor-student relationship.  Do you think you would know if your favourite high-school teacher was gay?

If it was such an important fact it should have been more explicit in the books; if it wasn't then Rowling could have just let people think and speculate what they may (personally I find the best stories intentionally leave gaps to be filled in by the reader).

And maybe that's what it did.  The issue only came up in response to questioning afterwards, so i would say that she left it mostly to the imagination.  It certainly contradicts nothing about what else we already knew about the character, so there's no reason to think that she didn't have it in mind all the time.  It just wasn't relevant in the novels.

Maybe professor McGonagall is a closet lesbian.  Maybe Snape is a marxist.  Maybe Hagrid is an Anarcho-syndicalist transsexual.  The major point here is why do you care?

If Rowling was asked why she decided to have a male protagonist, and she answered that Harry was originally born a girl, but the parents turned "her" into a boy by use of magic (nothing like a good deus ex machina) and nothing of this was indicated in the story or has any impact on the plot or character interaction, would you honestly say there was absolutely nothing about this that would make people scratch their heads, and criticise those who ask further about this as "antifemminist"?

That would actively contradict things that are already known about the character.  It would also be less plausible.  As it is, it is entirely likely (statistically) that some of the Harry Potter characters, were they real, would be gay, so this revelation is neither outside the bounds of probability nor inconsistent with the story.  It rather seems that only people with an anti-homosexual agenda have objected.  i doubt that we'd be hearing all these complaints about provocative additional biographical details if Rowling had mentioned that Dumbledore was vegetarian.

"Gandalf was a smoker.  So what?"

I didn't know the dangers of smoking was fully known in Tolkien's day.


The first study showing a link between smoking and lung cancer was published in 1943.  Bad timing by the German scientists in question, and their research was almost totally ignored at the time, so you're basically right.  An interesting parallel there - the dangers of smoking were relatively unknown when Tolkein published, and the dangers of Homosexuality had been wholly debunked by the time Rowling did.  And yet still with the objections....
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End Bringer

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2009, 03:56:47 PM »

It isn't possible to judge her purpose...

Obviously, that's what's being asked.

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...unless it is by the unreliable method of appealing to our own preconceived ideas on the subject.  Notice i said "If" before.  i have no idea what her purpose was, nor do i particularly care.  If it was bait, a lot of people have been fooled by their prejudices into taking it.  If it wasn't, then the same people look foolish.

And I said "alternatively" based on your premises. If it was bait, she looks petty for stooping to such behavior.

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He's an old man in the books.  Sexuality is expressed in more subtle ways as we get older, and not in ways which would be relevant to a mentor-student relationship.  Do you think you would know if your favourite high-school teacher was gay?

Or one just reads into it more than there actually is when the issue is basicly a blank sheet. And given teachers personalize their desks and offices with pictures of loved ones, I'd say yes it would come up more explicitly than you think.

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And maybe that's what it did.  The issue only came up in response to questioning afterwards, so i would say that she left it mostly to the imagination.  It certainly contradicts nothing about what else we already knew about the character, so there's no reason to think that she didn't have it in mind all the time.  It just wasn't relevant in the novels.

Is she meant for it to be left to the imagination than she would have left it to the imagination in response to questioning. Thus begging why throw this fact out there or why not make more supportive evidence in the books?

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Maybe professor McGonagall is a closet lesbian.  Maybe Snape is a marxist.  Maybe Hagrid is an Anarcho-syndicalist transsexual.  The major point here is why do you care?

Gee, questioning why fans take an interest and the addictive power of speculation and puzzle solving? That's a tough one.

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That would actively contradict things that are already known about the character.  It would also be less plausible.  As it is, it is entirely likely (statistically) that some of the Harry Potter characters, were they real, would be gay, so this revelation is neither outside the bounds of probability nor inconsistent with the story.  It rather seems that only people with an anti-homosexual agenda have objected.  i doubt that we'd be hearing all these complaints about provocative additional biographical details if Rowling had mentioned that Dumbledore was vegetarian.

Your dodging. If the fact could be put out there in a way not inconsistent or contradicting to the story, would you really say there was nothing about such add-on info that wouldn't justify people raising their eye-brows? I do find it humorous you appeal to a thing like real-world statistics in a fantasy based world of magic though.

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The first study showing a link between smoking and lung cancer was published in 1943.  Bad timing by the German scientists in question, and their research was almost totally ignored at the time, so you're basically right.  An interesting parallel there - the dangers of smoking were relatively unknown when Tolkein published, and the dangers of Homosexuality had been wholly debunked by the time Rowling did.  And yet still with the objections....

*snort* Yeah, AIDS, morality, and behavioural impact have all been totally debunked. :roll:
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 04:02:42 PM by End Bringer »
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Dannyboy

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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 05:19:41 AM »

EB,

...given teachers personalize their desks and offices with pictures of loved ones, I'd say yes it would come up more explicitly than you think.

That assumes the individual in question is in some form of relationship, not the case with Dumbledore.

Is she meant for it to be left to the imagination than she would have left it to the imagination in response to questioning. Thus begging why throw this fact out there or why not make more supportive evidence in the books?

i'm not sure that JK Rowling is obliged to operate on the basis of your personal desire for homosexuality to be invisible unless it conforms to your prejudices.  The personal relationships or preferences of the older characters in the books are rarely discussed explicitly, but that doesn't mean that the author cannot have any opinion on them.

"The major point here is why do you care?"

Gee, questioning why fans take an interest and the addictive power of speculation and puzzle solving? That's a tough one.


You're a fan of the book?  i know that SJ has blogged in the past that Harry Potter contains more Christian themes than those who reject it as evil witchcraft inspiring literature realise.  No wonder he's ticked off.  [biggrin

i have no problem with fans of the book discussing any aspect of the creative process, i just think that by homing in on this particular issue like a heat-seeker people actually expose motivations of the non-pure-academic-curiosity type.  More the political activist type.  It seems disingenuous to claim the former.

If the fact could be put out there in a way not inconsistent or contradicting to the story, would you really say there was nothing about such add-on info that wouldn't justify people raising their eye-brows?

i have no objection to eye-brow raising.  Actually, i also have no objection per se to this kind of politically-motivated-disguised-as-dispassionate-inquiry either, i just think it reveals a bias if Dumbledore's "outing" is the only subject discussed.

"...and the dangers of Homosexuality had been wholly debunked by the time Rowling did.  And yet still with the objections...."

*snort* Yeah, AIDS, morality, and behavioural impact have all been totally debunked. :roll:


You are endorsing the same kind of narrow-minded adherence to the simplest of statistical trends which could easily have been used in the past to make arguments about the "dangers" of being black.  In fact, it still could.  Does the fact that black people are disproportionately represented in the prison system necessarily mean that they are disproportionately criminal in their nature?  Or might there be some other factors involved which would render the most simplistic conclusion invalid.  People who make this kind of argument are only showing their prejudices more plainly.

i'm going to be away for three weeks by the way, so take your time.
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Re: Blog: Harry Potter and a Gay Dumbledore
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 11:52:03 AM »

That assumes the individual in question is in some form of relationship, not the case with Dumbledore.

Even past relations would be important enough.

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i'm not sure that JK Rowling is obliged to operate on the basis of your personal desire for homosexuality to be invisible unless it conforms to your prejudices.  The personal relationships or preferences of the older characters in the books are rarely discussed explicitly, but that doesn't mean that the author cannot have any opinion on them.

She is however obliged as a writer to be more indicative with her character's personalities (especially when they are major characters); assuming this was actually planned and not just thrown in half-heartedly.

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You're a fan of the book?  i know that SJ has blogged in the past that Harry Potter contains more Christian themes than those who reject it as evil witchcraft inspiring literature realise.  No wonder he's ticked off.  [biggrin

More a fan of the movies than the books. I just understand the nature of fandom.

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i have no problem with fans of the book discussing any aspect of the creative process, i just think that by homing in on this particular issue like a heat-seeker people actually expose motivations of the non-pure-academic-curiosity type.  More the political activist type.  It seems disingenuous to claim the former.

Heh. You should visit more sites solely dedicated to a work (books, movies, video games, etc.). You'd see everything is homed in on like a heat-seeker.

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i have no objection to eye-brow raising.  Actually, i also have no objection per se to this kind of politically-motivated-disguised-as-dispassionate-inquiry either, i just think it reveals a bias if Dumbledore's "outing" is the only subject discussed.

Your previous posts beg to differ. I'm reasonably certain if Dumbledore was said to be a "homophobe" in his youth, your tune would change and you'd be cheering homosexuals on in attacking it, which would indicate your bias in this matter. As for this being the only topic discussed all I can say is - Duh. If you haven't noticed SJ isn't running a Harry Potter site here.

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You are endorsing the same kind of narrow-minded adherence to the simplest of statistical trends which could easily have been used in the past to make arguments about the "dangers" of being black.

And I don't apologize. Truth and facts are rather narrow in scope. Such as the fact that homosexuality being a behavioural thing puts it in a completely different catagory than being black or female thus comparisons are a total straw man.

Homosexuality is wrong. Now either you can accept this as a universal morality or it's just an opinion you can not deny people from having. Either way you have no ground to oppose the view, indicating your lose-lose belief system. And before you froth further in the mouth, you'll notice I'm not saying burn homosexuals at the stake, nor have I ever said Rowling's books need to be burned in masse anywhere. The only "prejudice" I have for homosexuality is the same one I have for stealing, lying, and sexual promiscuity in general. Which is why your posts of "bias" and such are indicative of the level you think at.

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In fact, it still could.  Does the fact that black people are disproportionately represented in the prison system necessarily mean that they are disproportionately criminal in their nature?  Or might there be some other factors involved which would render the most simplistic conclusion invalid.  People who make this kind of argument are only showing their prejudices more plainly.

Actually that's a pretty good example of just how human they are from everyone else.  :wink: But in your haste to show homosexuality is anything like being black, you'll notice being black isn't an act that lands one in jail as opposed to homosexual behaviour.

And I'm sorry, are you suggesting throughout all this that there is some transcendant moral standard that says being prejudice is wrong? What an odd thing for an atheist to argue.  [biggrin
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